Scientology Lies |
Scientology revenge-pickets me at my home, November 21, 1998Three Scientology representatives picketed my home on November 21, 1998, in retaliation for my picket at Scientology's San Francisco org (83 McAllister) earlier that day. Revenge picket, my San Francisco apartment building, 11/21/98
Picketers: Ben, "Tall Black Guy," "Stridenta" (and me!)
Date/Time: 11/21/98, 2:00 to 3:15 pm or so
Handouts: fliers (mint/law, "Why I Picket", criminal allegations, Lisa,
Xenu, mini-fliers), suckers, mints, Attorney General postcards
Tools: sign, disposable camera, tape recorder, bag-o-suckers-n-mints, "I'm
NOT a Scientologist" headband
Weather: cloudy but not rainy
Foot Traffic: light
Street Traffic: light
General Passerby Response: favorable to me, unfavorable to Scientology
(about 25-35% of them were uninterested in the whole thing)
Note: At the end of the picket, I asked my two anonymous picketers if
they'd like to give me a name or a nickname for me to use in my picket
report. The gentleman said I could just call him "Tall Black Guy," so
that's what I'll do (TBG for short). The blonde lady declined to give me
any kind of name, so I have dubbed her Stridenta. If she chooses to picket
my home again and wishes to provide a different name, I'll be happy to use
it.
NOTE: The following quotes are pretty accurate but NOT PRECISELY ACCURATE.
I didn't really feel like listening to my tape more than once. (For the
same reason, it's not complete.) If there's a specific comment anyone
wishes to get exactly, let me know and I'll try to transcribe it.
I know this is really long, and I'm not likely to transcribe all my future
conversations with Scientologists. However, I thought it might be
interesting for those who've never picketed to get the real flavor of
Scientology Communication [TM]. Yes, folks, this is your brain on
Scientology. Also, I was amused that TBG thought I spent so much time on
this stuff. Therefore, I'm dedicating this revenge picket report to TBG. I
hope he reads every last bit of it. And DO let me know if I've gotten
anything wrong!
After my picket at the SF org, I came home where I knew my revenge
picketers would be waiting for me. To my surprise, I learned later that
both phr and Mysterious Dude were worried about me facing them alone. I
never gave it a second thought. It's not like they're going to hurt me, or
anything.
Sure enough, Ben, Tall Black Guy, and Stridenta were right out front. I
said, cheerily, "Hi Ben!" and began counter-picketing
(counter-counter-picketing?). To my usual spiel ("I think Scientology's
hurting people - would you like to know more?") I added "These people are
out here trying to intimidate me out of speaking the truth."
When I arrived, I told Stridenta and TBG,
"I'd be happy to talk with you if there's anything you'd like to
communicate to me."
TBG (sarcastically): "Thanks for telling me that, Kristi."
Me: "Would you like to tell me your name?"
TBG: "I'd like you to leave me alone."
Me: "I'd actually like the same thing."
TBG: "If you'd stop picketing we could have a perfect world."
Me: "If you'd stop doing the Introspection Rundown and stop locking people
up I'd be happy to stop picketing."
Stridenta REALLY didn't like me using Scientology terms -
Stridenta: "Stop using Scientology terms, not-a-Scientologist!"
Tall Black Man was under the impression that I had no life outside of my
activism:
TBG: "You ever watch movies, or read a book?"
Me: "I went to see Richard Dawkins speak this week."
(Note to TBG: Actually, as I posted before, I've had a VERY full month. I
saw live shows by Tish Hinojosa and Bruce Hornsby; I saw Olympia Dukakis
in "Hecuba;" I saw the Richard Dawkins lecture; I went to the movies ("The
Chambermaid"); I went to the extraordinary Calder and Diebenkorn exhibits
at SF MOMA; I watched some videos ("Mrs. Brown," "Contact," and "The
Opposite of Sex"); I watched a bunch of TV, including "Iron Chefs", the
PBS Frank Lloyd Wright special, and the documentary on the Castro; and I
voted, which takes about as much time and is at least as entertaining as
going to the movies. I also worked 40 - 60 hour weeks. And I spent this
weekend working on the artwork for three new Racer Records releases and
listening to the rough mixes for Big Umbrella's fourth album - one of the
songs rocks so hard I can't possibly sit still when it comes on. I can't
imagine why you think it takes me 8-10 hours a day to post a handful of
messages to the newsgroup. Are you surrounded by really inefficient
people, or do you just not write enough messages yourself to know how easy
it is to dash them off quickly?)
TBG tried out the bigotry angle:
TBG: "You really hate us, don't you?"
Me: "Actually, I don't." I tried explaining that, in addition to my
concern for the unsuspecting public, I was concerned about Scientologists
getting locked up or otherwise abused, and that I was concerned that, if
management didn't get its ethics in pretty soon, my Scientology friends
wouldn't have a church at all.
TBG (sarcastically): "Our well-being is what you're doing this for. We
really appreciate that."
Me: "... And where is sarcasm on the tone scale?"
TBG & Ben: "About where you are." "About 30 notches above where you are."
(Geez, they can't even agree about where I am on the tone scale! I'll give
you a hint, guys: from my perspective, it's Enthusiasm; from your
perspective, it's Covert Hostility.)
... and Stridenta got on her Scn terminology kick again:
Stridenta: "It's really interesting that you're using all these Scn terms.
It assists your communication."
Me: "I don't understand why that's a problem."
Stridenta: "I'm talking about the sign that's on your head." (My "I am not
a Scientologist" headband.)
I explained that I used Scn terms when talking to Scientologists. I don't
use them when talking to the general public. The general public doesn't
know what the Tone Scale and the Introspection Rundown are. They don't
especially care, either.
Stridenta: "Scientology has benefitted you greatly."
Me: "I'm sorry, but I don't think it has. I think I'm a better judge of
what's benefitted my life than you, and I'd rather you wouldn't invalidate
that."
Stridenta: "I'd rather I did invalidate it."
Me: "Fine. Go for it."
Stridenta claimed that I was out to destroy Scn:
Stridenta: "It's very important to destroy a good group!"
Me: "I'm not trying to destroy you. I'm trying to get you to get your
ethics in."
Stridenta: "Why don't you do it in the proper way?"
Me: "Why is this not the proper way? I've written letters and you guys
haven't written back."
They (mostly TBG) tried to get me to list my specific complaints against
Scn. One example I gave:
Me: "I'm against lying to people in an attempt to get money out of them."
Stridenta: "You never read that in policy."
Me: "Sure I have!"
I described the reg script, noting that it says that the personality test
is scientific, which is a lie. "It's not a scientific test. There's
nothing scientific about it."
Stridenta: "Can you prove that?"
Me: "Sure."
TBG tried to raise the Affinity and Reality points of the ARC triangle (or
something):
(Note to newbies - that means he was trying to find some common ground,
something we could agree on:)
TBG: "Can you think of anything good about Scn?"
I had to think about it ...
Me: "I think encouraging people to look things up in a dictionary is a
good thing. I think sitting down and listening to people is a good thing.
I think encouraging people to communicate with each other is a good
thing."
TBG accused me of lying about Scn. I asked,
"Can you identify a single lie that I've told?"
... but of course he couldn't. He claimed there were LOTS of them, but he
couldn't name a single one.
Stridenta tried to block my sign with hers - she laughed like it was a
clever and original thing to do. I just kept dodging her until she got
bored.
As usual, they were very unimpressive picketers. They mostly stood around,
rarely talking to passersby (of course, I usually got to them first),
rarely attempting to move around or do anything at all. I, on the other
hand, chased busses to the corner (I live about 25 feet from the corner)
to wave like mad and show off my sign and shout details of the Dec. 5
memorial, and I approached nearly all the passersby and offered them
fliers.
TBG tried the "you're actually bringing people in" routine:
TBG: "We get more people in every time you picket."
Me: "So why do you want me to stop?"
I annoyed Stridenta again with my use of an official Scientology [TM] term:
"All you guys have to do is get your ethics in and I'll be happy to stop
picketing."
Stridenta: "There she goes again!"
Me: "Ok, how's this - all you have to do is start BEHAVING ETHICALLY."
TBG: "Can you write down what you want us to do and send me a letter?"
Me: "I've sent letters and never heard back."
TBG: "I never saw it."
Me: "Well, it wasn't addressed to you and I don't know your name." (Duh.)
"All of my complaints are on my web page."
Stridenta demonstrates her formidable communication skills on a passerby:
"This woman is crazy!"
Me: "Oh, THAT's effective."
TBG, possibly running out of slurs, says,
TBG: "Do you eat candy all the time?"
Me: "No. I do like to give it away, though. Would you like a piece?"
(He declined.)
TBG attempts to establish Affinity:
TBG: "You seem like a decent person."
Me: "Thank you. So do you."
TBG: "I really get what you're trying to say." (Implying, "So you can stop
it now.")
Me: "Well, apparently management doesn't, though. I'm trying to give other
people information so they can make an informed decision before they
become involved."
Stridenta accuses me, yet again, of being destructive.
Me: "How am I being destructive?"
Stridenta: "I think it's obvious."
Me: "How come when I ask you for a specific example you can't give me one?"
A gentleman from my building arrived:
Stridenta: "Do you live around here?"
Gentleman: "Yep"
Stridenta (Hands him a flier): "There you go. A little too crazy."
Meanwhile, I yell "Scientology hurts people!" to onlookers across the street.
Stridenta: "Sounds like you said åMinestrone hurts people.'"
Gentleman: "No, SCIENTOLOGY hurts people."
TBG tries to convince me that, compared to, say, psychs, not that many
people are being hurt by Scn.
Me: "I think one abuse is too many. I think one death is too many."
TBG is again at something of a loss, and, perhaps implying that I'm
idealistic, perhaps meaning something else (who knows?), says:
"You should be living next door to Rodney King."
I concur with him that racism is a big problem.
Stridenta mishears (probably intentionally) and starts ranting that I
think Scientologists are racist.
Me: "A, I never said that, and B, LRH wrote some very racist things."
Stridenta: "You're saying Scientology is racist!"
Me: "I never said that. I said LRH wrote some racist things. To the best
of my knowledge, Scn has never been a racist organization, and evidence of
that is that Jesse Prince, a black man, rose to the second-highest
position of power in Scn."
(comm lag!)
Stridenta: "Good for you. You can cognite. But you just got done saying
that the church is racist."
Me: "I NEVER said that. You must have misheard me. And I've got my tape
recording so we can go back and listen."
Stridenta, momentarily thwarted, tries a different tack:
"You never read anything L Ron Hubbard wrote."
Me: "I've read several of the policy issues. I've read Dianetics cover to
cover."
Stridenta: "You have not read a racist issue."
Me: "Not a racist bulletin, but racist things that he wrote to his wife."
Stridenta: "You have not read ANYTHING."
Me: "I don't have them with me but I could supply them to you if you want them."
Stridenta: "You're studying something else."
Me: "I'm sorry you can't confront the truth. It's on the Internet if you
want to go find it."
Stridenta: "It's lies!"
Me: "How do you know that? Were you there? Were you his wife? Did he write
you those letters?"
TBG again seeks Affinity & Reality:
TBG: "Do you think you could ever say anything nice about us?"
Me: "I don't think I'd be terribly inclined to."
TBG: "You said you don't think we're all bad."
Me: "No, I don't think you're all bad. I told Bill Crawford is that I'm
really fond of just about everybody I've met in Scn. Ben, here? Last time
he was out here he wouldn't even talk to me, but I'm really fond of Ben. I
like Ben. ... I happen to think that Scn management is driving it into the
ground, and if you want to have a church around in 20 years, those are
some truths that you need to confront."
TBG: "There are more and more people every year."
Me: "Can you tell me why the Sutter mission had to move to smaller quarters?"
TBG: "The Sutter mission? ... I can tell you why other missions have expanded."
... but of course he couldn't answer my question:
Me: "You don't know about the Sutter one? It seems to us that orgs are
closing down. San Antonio closed down, I understand Houston closed down
..."
TBG asked, what about all the new orgs, all the countries where Scn had
never been before? He also said Study Tech was being used, officially, in
California schools. I said I wasn't aware of that and asked him for a
reference. I said I thought the textbooks had been rejected. He said there
was an article in the LA Times within the past year. Anyone?
TBG "I don't understand you."
Me: "So you're out here criticizing something you don't understand, saying
I'm criticizing something I don't understand." (Their signs and libellous
fliers say "Don't criticize what you can't understand!")
TBG says he wants to understand me.
Me: "OK. I've been concerned about civil - human rights for a long time."
Ben: "You don't care about civil rights?"
Me: "I do care about civil rights, but I think human rights are more
fundamental. If you aren't free to move - if you've been locked up - you
can't exercise your civil rights."
We're interrupted by a passerby:
Me: "Hi, would you like some info?"
Lady: "They call constantly. Scientology." She explains that she hasn't
been able to get them to leave her alone. "I moved, but they're probably
still calling my old number."
I gave her a Lisa flier and she thanked me profusely. She noted that there
was a big franchise in San Jose: "There's a lot of kids on the street in
San Jose and they try to get them in. I guess it's an alternative to being
on the street, but it's sick."
Me: "There's a lot of picketing going on down there." She was glad to hear
it. I'm hopeful she may join our Dec. 5 protest.
I pointed out to Stridenta:
"Now she had a negative opinion of Scn before I even said anything."
Back to TBG:
"So is the Scn problem a civil rights problem?"
Me: "No, my problem with Scn is a human rights issue. In fact, my web site
has a comparison of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights with Scn
practices. Scn claims to support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
but in policy and practice contradict the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights."
TBG "What about getting people off drugs? Is that a bad thing?"
Me: "I happen to think the way in which Scn gets people off drugs is
deeply harmful."
TBG: "Even though it's the most effective anywhere."
Me: "That's not what the statistics say that I've seen."
TBG: "Who's better?"
I said I didn't have any specific examples and that I haven't studied it
carefully. I tried to point out that the German judge ruled that it was
okay to say that there was no proof Scn had ever cured anyone, but I
couldn't get a word in edgewise (which is probably just as well - I'm not
sure I wanted to start arguing about Germany).
Stridenta tries to deny the contents of the Introspection Rundown
Stridenta: "What was the thing about the Introspection Rundown?"
Me: "What about it? Do you want to know what it is?"
Stridenta: "I know exactly what it is."
Me: "Do you want to know why I oppose it? ... Because it mandates locking
people up, and that's illegal."
Stridenta: "It says nothing about locking people up."
Me: "No, you're right, it doesn't say ålocking people up,' but it says
putting the person in isolation, and if they try to leave, they say
åSorry, Joe, no go on coming out of isolation.'"
Stridenta: "That is not in there."
Me: "Sorry, it's in there."
Stridenta: "Not in the Introspection Rundown."
Me: "Yep. I've read the book."
TBG: "You're just reading what you want to read."
Me: "That's right. I don't have time to read all of it. I only read the
stuff that interests me."
TBG asks if I'm familiar with Daniel Carver. I'm not. He explains that
Carver is head of the Ku Klux Klan, and says if you hear him on the radio,
he sounds perfectly nice and perfectly decent, but he's really full of
hate. I say, "Kind of like L Ron Hubbard? Who was very charming and very
charismatic and wrote a lot of stuff that was unscientific and made up off
the top of his head?"
Stridenta tried to tell me there were four policies that contradicted the
Introspection Rundown. I asked her to tell me the policy numbers, but she
refused. She said I was taking things out of context, and I said I didn't
think I was. I said the IR was applied to Lisa McPherson and it killed
her, and she wasn't the only person who had been subjected to the IR. I
also said there were other policies that mandated holding people against
their will, and false imprisonment had happened to other people.
Then I flipped over my tape. ("Okay, guys, you want to say anything bad -
say it now!")
TBG again demonstrates his misunderstanding about my life and my time:
TBG: "The bulk of your life is saying bad things about Scn."
Me: "That's not the bulk of my life."
TBG: "That's all I see."
Me: "That's because you don't see the rest of my life. Just like I see the
bad things in Scientology, you don't see those, so you don't think they
exist. You don't see the rest of my life so you don't think it exists. ...
I went to Chicago and walked right by the Michigan Street mission a couple
of times and didn't picket. I had other things I wanted to do. I have a
life."
TBG: "You wanted to. You gotta tell me you truly wanted to."
Me: <grin> "I did."
Stridenta tries the Rogue Scientologist lie:
Str: "You're failing to distinguish."
Me: "What am I failing to distinguish? You're talking in suppressive
generalities. You need to be a little more specific."
Str: "You're failing to distinguish between Scientology and Scientologists."
Me: "No, I'm not. I understand the concept of a rogue person acting on
their own. In this case, according to Scn's own logs, these people were
following orders and following tech. For 17 days they were doing this. And
Lisa is not the only person this has happened to."
TBG: "You feel real bad about Lisa."
Me: "Yes, I do."
TBG: "She was a Scientologist."
Me: "Yes, I know. Obviously."
Str: "What about a Catholic minister who is so misguided that he molests a
child?"
Me: "Now, see, there is an excellent example - I can see very easily that
that is an individual not acting according to policy. There is no church
policy -"
Str: "Do you know how many of those guys had the strange idea that they
were operating out of the Bible?"
Me: "I would question that."
TBG looks for my REAL motivation, and claims Lisa's death was unavoidable:
TBG: "You have to have some other motivation for doing this."
Me: "Do I? And why isn't one death worth protesting?"
TBG: "If you've got a million, and then you've got one, which is more
important?"
Me: "The one is important to her family. The one is important to me. The
one was important to her."
TBG starts implying that Lisa's death was an accident: "Nobody would have
been able to tell that that would happen to her."
Me: "Excuse me - that was an ACCIDENT? There is NO WAY that was an
accident. You can read Scientology's own logs and you can see that based
on her deterioration - have you read the logs?"
TBG: "Kristi, I'm trying to help you out here. Nobody can tell -"
Me: "You can tell when someone is not eating, is not drinking, is not sleeping."
TBG: "Were you there?"
Me: "I wasn't alive during the Holocaust but I believe it happened."
TBG: "Were you there??"
Me: "How do you know what I'm saying is wrong?"
TBG: "It's your obsession. You only want to see the bad things."
Me: "That's not true. I'm happy to focus on the bad things, because I
can't fix åem if I can't see åem."
TBG: "You embellish them."
Me: "I don't think I'm embellishing them. I try to be very careful to
stick to what I've read from people who were there."
TBG: "If you look at all the facts of this case, you'll see that it was
unpreventable."
Me: "Unpreventable?!? There's no way in HELL that was unpreventable.
That's why the church was charged. It says so right in the complaint. The
church was charged because it was CLEARLY preventable."
TBG: "Nobody could have predicted that this would happen."
Me: "That if you lock someone in a room and hold her down and give her drugs -"
TBG: "Gave her drugs? In Scientology?"
Me: "Gave her drugs. Read the logs. They held her down and gave her Valium
and chloral hydrate." (oops - my mistake: Minkoff prescribed Valium for
Lisa, but Kartuzinski decided she'd be better off with aspirin and
Benadryl.)
Str: "What? I think you are crazy."
Me: "Scientology's logs. I gave åem to Bill Crawford. He's got åem."
TBG: "You think we're all hurting people."
Me: "No, I think you're all members of an organization that's involved in
hurting people."
TBG: "You think we have the intention of hurting people. Is that what
you're saying?"
Me: "No, I think the people who were watching Lisa McPherson had every
intention of helping her. Unfortunately, they were following a policy that
was bound to result in her death. That's what I think. I think that all of
you are members of Scientology because you believe that it's a force for
good in your lives and in the world. And I believe that you're
inadvertently supporting an organization that is hurting people. Excuse me
- I think that you're INTENTIONALLY supporting an organization that you
don't know is hurting people."
Stridenta tries to pretend that, since administering drugs is out-tech, my
entire argument is wrong:
Str: "There is one policy that supports giving drugs to people. There's
ONE. Under a doctor's care."
Me: "The woman who administered drugs to Lisa was not a licensed doctor in
the state of Florida. She lost her license after her drug problems."
Str: "Do you understand the difference between what occurred and what
policy states? That is my point."
Me: <sigh> "Nevertheless, the fact that she was held against her will was
in accordance with policy."
Str: "It is not."
Me: "Sorry, I've read it. It is."
Str: "There is no policy to support that."
Me: "Welll, I don't know how you can interpret the Introspection Rundown
any other way -"
Str: "I can."
Me: "Well, I'd be happy if you'd correct it for me."
Str: "It's so far away from what the IR even deals with. To imagine that
what you're talking about is even related - somebody's got a very large
misunderstood."
Me: "Well, I'd be happy if you'd try to help me clear it up."
A bus came by, and I ran to the corner, waved my arms, held up my sign,
and shouted:
"Memorial picket! December 5! 83 McAllister! Honor the memory of Lisa
McPherson!"
... and we pick up where we left off - Stridenta now claims what I read
is a forgery, then pretends it was cancelled:
Str: "You have a very large misunderstanding."
Me: "Well, I'd be happy if you'd try to clear it up for me."
Str: "I think what you read may have been made up."
Me: "I read them in Red volumes at the San Francisco library. If they were
forgeries, they were really extensive."
Str: "You're saying that in the Introspection Rundown, they're incarcerated?"
Me: "It says that you put someone in isolation, and if they try to get out
of isolation without giving the case supervisor what the case supervisor
determines is a reasonable statement of responsibility, the case
supervisor says, åSorry, Joe, no go on coming out of isolation yet.' That
means that they are holding them against their will."
Str: "Did you happen to notice - there is such a thing as policies having
been cancelled."
Me: "Oh really? Can you show me the directive? And if it was cancelled,
why are they still using it on Lisa McPherson, Gitte Mogenson, and - I
don't know who else, because you guys don't have any governmental
oversight."
Str: "I think if you were to update what you have read, and correct what
you have read -"
Me: "I repeatedly ask for any conflicting information. If you have any
information against what I've said -"
Str: "Who?"
Me: "Everybody I talk to."
Str: "Who?"
Me: "I've written letters to five orgs, including LA and Flag, and gotten
no response."
(During face-to-face conversations at pickets, I've requested conflicting
information from Jeff Quiros, my handler in LA, Cheryl at my previous
picket - and I THINK Darlene and Bill and Michelle, as well. It's also on
the main index page of my scientology-lies site.)
TBG restates his tired position that I wouldn't listen to anything they told me:
TBG: "You've already made up your mind. We can never change your mind. We
know that you don't like us."
Me: "Actually, I can show you that that's not true -"
TBG: "Why would people waste their time, hours, trying to get you all this
information that you won't read?"
Me: "Jeff Quiros gave me a piece of info that conflicted with the
information that I had, and I immediately updated my web page and changed
my fliers. I was under the impression that both Dorothy Geary and her
husband were held against their will. He said, åNo, her husband was never
held against his will,' and I went back and reread my newspaper article. I
was mistaken, I updated my stuff. Telling me åYou're wrong!' is not
convincing. Giving me specific information is."
TBG: "No matter what we tell you, you've made up your mind."
Me: "I just gave you a specific example of how that's not true."
TBG: "I don't know why we should be bending over backwards to give you
information -"
... and he continues to whine repeatedly about how I would never, never,
never, ever listen to them...
Me: "The evidence shows that I am happy to consider conflicting
information. If you can give me conflicting information -"
TBG: "If you were to start off civilly - that's the same reason I wouldn't
go to a neo-Nazi to convince him that all blacks aren't junkies."
Me: You don't have any conflicting information."
TBG: whine, whine, whine... "Why would you go out of your way to talk to
someone who has already proven that they don't likke you and they don't
like what you believe in?"
Me: "First of all, I've already told you - I like you."
TBG: "I don't think so. You wouldn't be doing this if you did."
Me: "You're wrong. I would be doing this if you were my best friend and
you belonged to an organization that was hurting people. In the second
place I have told you that in the one instance where I was given
conflicting information -"
TBG: "What you say and what you do are two different things."
Me: "You're not listening to me."
TBG: "What you say and what you do are two different things."
Me: "I don't believe so. Can you point to a specific example?"
TBG: "Right here!"
Me: "Liking someone doesn't mean that I won't point out illegal activity
by an organization they belong to."
TBG: "Can you see my point?" ... whine whine whine ...
Me: "I understand that many of you have the mistaken belief that you
cannot change my mind - that you cannot correct any misinformation I have.
What I have TOLD you -"
TBG: "This comes from years of growing up in different cities back east
around lots of people who don't like me. It's no use wasting your time
trying to get them to like you. I don't care if you like me or not."
Me: "I understand. I'll tell you what - let's try a little experiment:
find ONE piece of information - one - just one - that contradicts anything
I say, anywhere on my web site, and present it to me."
TBG: "I can find lots."
Me: "Pick one. Any one."
TBG: "That would be a waste of time - then you'd just - I'm not going to
go through and spend hours and hours of my time, like you do, trying to -"
Me: "I'm not asking you to. I'm asking you to find one thing that you know
is a lie -"
TBG: "There's buckets of it. I don't even have to look hard."
Me: "Fine! Find one thing that you think is a lie, tell me that you have
conflicting information -"
TBG: "And then what are you going to do?"
Me: "I'll try to verify it, and if I can verify it, I'll change it. And
then you'll know -"
TBG: "In order to make a little progress, I would have to do that on every
item. You know how much time that would take?"
Me: "I'm relying on newspaper articles, I'm relying on court documents and
sworn affidavits -"
TBG: "I'm just trying to show my point, why nobody would want to do that."
Me: "If you guys don't want to correct misinformation, that's not my
problem, is it? I take great pains to make sure that the information is
correct. If there's incorrect information and you can't go to the trouble
of telling me where it is ..."
the conversation swerves; Stridenta again deliberately misstates what
someone said:
TBG: "Cut out all the picketing. This is so harassing to students like myself."
Me: "What about the harassing that happens to - like that lady who walked
by and said you wouldn't stop calling her?"
TBG: "I don't know her. How do you know she's telling the truth?"
Me: <exasperated laugh> "Why would I not believe her?"
TBG: "Exactly. Because you hear what you want to hear."
Me: "Because I generally believe people until they indicate to me that
they're not trustworthy."
Str: "She said it was her understanding. She didn't say it had happened to her."
Me: "No, she said that Scientology had been calling her."
Str: "And that's a crime?"
Me: "No, but it's an indication that you guys are harassing people in a
worse way than you claim I'm harassing you."
TBG goes off onto some whine about how he's "heard" people say the
Holocaust never happened (note: although I think this is faithfully
transcribed, I don't think the words that came out of his mouth actually
reflect what he was trying to say. I think he was doing the "people say
false things, so how can you ever believe anything anyone ever says"
thing, and then the "you can only know what you've personally experienced"
thing. I don't believe he actually believes the Holocaust never happened,
and I certainly believe it did, indeed, take place.)
TBG: "The Holocaust never happened either. By verifiable sources. Right?"
Me: "Wrong."
TBG: "There you go. How do you know it didn't?"
Me: "You're right. At some point we all have to decide what our level of
credulity is."
TBG: "And you've decided that. If she [the woman who complained about the
phone calls] had said, åI love Scientology. It's such a great thing, it
really helped me," you wouldn't have believed her, right?"
Me: "No, I'm sorry, you're mistaken. When I go down and picket and people
decline my fliers and say they've been in 23 years and it's the best thing
that's ever happened to me, I go, åOh, great. Good for you.' I don't try
to talk them out of it -"
TBG: "You don't believe them."
Me: "Yeah, I do. If nothing bad's ever happened to them specifically..."
TBG claims there are millions of Scientologists:
TBG: "Don't you see how this is really a hurtful thing?"
Me: "No, I don't, and I certainly don't think it's more hurtful than
locking people up in the desert."
TBG: "So we should think you really like us a lot and that's why you're
telling all these lies about the church?"
Me: "If you can't point to a specific lie, then you're lying in calling me
a liar."
TBG: "If there was a specific person that you were talking about, I would
understand a little better, but there's millions of Scientologists!"
Me: "There's NOT åmillions of Scientologists' according to any census, and
that's another example of Scientology's many, many lies. Vaughn Young says
that they used to just pull the numbers out of thin air when he was on
staff."
TBG: "Put it this way - I'm not even trying to convince you - even if
there were only 10,000 - are you saying that all of us are wrong?"
Me: "No - I'm saying that all of you are supporting an organization that,
most likely without your knowledge, is hurting people. I'm trying to give
you that knowledge, and more importantly, I'm trying to give that
knowledge to other people."
Another gentleman who lives in my building comes by. I give him a flier,
tell him that the others are trying to intimidate me, and give him the
details of the Lisa memorial picket. He thanks me and goes inside.
Stridenta displays her powerful observational abilities:
Str: "Does he live in your building?"
Me: Yes he does. (Duh. No, we just hand out keys to the whole neighborhood.)
Sometime during the following exchange, the first gentleman from my
building came outside to listen and watch.
Me: Now - I think we have another little thing in common, where I can show
that YOU wouldn't listen to ME if I provided evidence to you.
TBG: You haven't given me any reason to listen to you. You've always
stated your views so broadly -
Me: I don't think I'm stating my views broadly. I think I'm saying Lisa
McPherson died.
TBG: You think we're brainwashed.
Me: I never said you're brainwashed.
TBG: And taking pictures right in my face - I'd say that's an affront.
Me: Well, it never occurred to me until you guys started doing it to me.
You've got those fliers with my picture on it - where do you think you got
it?
TBG: <laughs, says ruefully to Stridenta> She's got us there.
Me: We came and picketed over there and you had a videocamera in our face
the whole time.
TBG: There's better ways to do this than picketing in front of us.
Me: I don't think so. And the fact that you guys are so upset about it
tells me that it's effective.
TBG: All your sign says to people is you hate Scientology.
Me: What the sign says to people is Scientology hurts people, and there
are specific examples of people that Scientology has hurt.
TBG: Why don't you go picket the Chinese over Tibet? (We had discussed
this earlier.)
Me: As soon as you guys stop doing things that are hurting people, I'll go
picket them, or somebody else.
TBG: We're not doing it!! Am I doing it?
Me: No. Your organization is. And your money goes to support these problems.
Str: Do you have an example? Do you have an example at my org?
Me: Yes - Wayne Whitney. Wayne Whitney was hurt at San Francisco org.
Dorothy Geary was hurt at San Francisco org. (Both are listed, along with
Lisa, on my new sign.)
Str: When?
Me: Dorothy Geary in the 80's, Wayne Whitney was a couple of years ago.
Dorothy Geary was held against her will. Dorothy Geary was missing pieces
of skin when she went home to her family. Ask Jeff Quiros - he told me he
knows all about it.
Str: He did, huh?
Me: Yep - that's what he said.
Finally, they decided they'd put in their time and began muttering to each
other, shuffling like they were about to leave. I asked if they'd like to
give me picket names; TBG gave me TBG, and Stridenta declined.
Me (to Ben): Nice to see you!
Ben: No it wasn't.
I wished them all a good week and said, "See you next time!"
One last pedestrian happened by, and they collared him and gave him a DA
flier, and I provided a Lisa flier, as well. We explained our opposing
viewpoints. TBG said, "She's obsessed with us. She does this every day."
Hey, TBG - way to lie! Clearly, I don't picket every day.
Finished picketing for the day, I went inside, chatting with the gentleman
who had been outside observing. He was thoroughly unimpressed with them.
He had had a professor in college who was a Scientologist, and who, he
told me, would have put this group to shame.
<whew! ... letting my fingers rest a minute ... >
So, although I wish they wouldn't lie about me (or about Scientology), in
many ways I really enjoyed their visit. They were considerably less
hostile when they left (for which I think I can take credit), and I had
had a great workout - flexing my relatively new debating muscles along
with my arms and my legs. (My calf muscles were pretty sore the next day.
Fortunately, it was a good excuse for a massage. <grin>)
It was an excellent opportunity to practice remaining calm while
countering their misinformation. I really did develop a fondness for TBG,
who seems like quite a nice guy when he's not lying, shouting profanities,
or trying to ARC-break me.
One of the great things about debating Scientologists is the repetitive
nature of the conversations. You know how, when the words are flying fast
and furious, there are replies that don't occur to you until afterwards?
"Darn - I SHOULD'VE said ... " Well, with Scientologists, you ALWAYS get
another chance. Whether the next revenge picket features these three or
some other cadre of "spontaneous" picketers, I can count on the same
misdirections and lies coming up.
I do hope it's these three, though. I really like Ben and TBG, and
although Stridenta is more of a challenge, I ENJOY a challenge. <GRIN>
P.S. I forgot to mention - when they picketed me Friday, 11/20, they left
folded DA fliers stuck in the gate of my apartment building, all neatly
addressed to my neighbors. One was addressed to me. Do you suppose this
was their little calling card, in response to my request that they let me
know when I've been picketed so I would be sure to know when to be
intimidated? Gosh, aren't they considerate!
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