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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
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7 STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
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RE: LISA McPHERSON
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12 SWORN
STATEMENT OF: HEATHER NOELLE PETZOLD.
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TAKEN BY: Mark McGarry,
14 Assistant State Attorney.
15 DATE: April 10, 1997.
16 BEFORE: Lynne J. Ide, RPR, RMR
Notary Public,
17 State of Florida at Large.
18 PLACE: Office of State Attorney
Criminal Justice Center
19 B200
Clearwater, Florida.
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KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
24 TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT (813)224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER (813)821-3320
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3 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Assistant State Attorney
4 Attorney for State of Florida.
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ALLAN "LEE" STROPE,
6 Special Agent,
Florida Department of Law Enforcement
7 28870 U.S. Highway 19 North
Suite 200
8 Clearwater, Florida 34621
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JOHN F. LAURO, ESQUIRE
10 Barnett Bank Plaza
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
11 Suite 3950
Tampa, Florida 33602
12 Counsel for the Witness.
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INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS
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Examination by Mr. McGarry Page 3
17 Examination by Agent Strope Page 55
Continued Examination by Mr. McGarry Page 87
18 Continued Examination by Agent Strope Page 87
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KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 (Witness sworn).
2 MR. LAURO: Ms. Petzold is testifying today
3 pursuant to a subpoena properly issued by the State
4 Attorney's Office.
5 But for the issuance of that subpoena, she
6 would assert her constitutional rights as guaranteed by
7 the United States Constitution and Florida Constitution,
8 and as a result she's testifying under compulsion and as
9 result of the subpoena and, therefore, she's afforded all
10 of the protections of Florida law in accordance with that
11 subpoena.
12 (Recess taken).
13 MR. LAURO: We now also have custody of the
14 subpoena issued by the State Attorney's Office for
15 Ms. Petzold.
16 Thank you.
17 HEATHER NOELLE PETZOLD,
18 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
19 and testified as follows:
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. McGARRY:
22 Q. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm going to ask you
23 some questions in reference to the circumstances up to the
24 death of Lisa McPherson back in November and December of
25 1995.
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1 I understand that your name came up as one of
2 the persons that had contact with her.
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. But before we start that, I need to get a little
5 background information, if I could.
6 I need to know your birth date if we can?
7 A. Yes. 18 January, 1978.
8 Q. Okay. And where were you born?
9 A. California. L.A. area. I don't remember
10 exactly where.
11 Q. Okay. Where do you reside now?
12 A. Clearwater.
13 Q. Okay. And do you live --
14 A. I live--
15 Q. -- on church property?
16 A. Yes, Hacienda.
17 Q. How long have you lived there at Hacienda?
18 A. Seven years -- well, six, going on seven.
19 Q. How long have you lived in Clearwater, period?
20 A. The same.
21 Q. The same?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where did you come from before that?
24 A. Los Angeles.
25 Q. Did you come here because of the church?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Uh-huh.
2 THE REPORTER: Would you answer yes or no.
3 BY MR. McGARRY:
4 Q. She can't take down "uh-huh" or "uh-uh."
5 MR. LAURO: Do you know what you may want
6 to do is sit back a little bit this way and project a
7 little bit more so that the court reporter can hear, as
8 well.
9 THE WITNESS: That's right. Okay.
10 BY MR. McGARRY:
11 Q. So were you a member of the church in
12 California?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You weren't?
15 A. Well, I was a member there in the respect I was
16 a parishioner. But I wasn't a staff member.
17 Q. Okay. How did you come to move to Clearwater?
18 A. I visited here to find out -- to see the Church
19 of Scientology and to -- basically just for the purpose of
20 visiting. And while here, I decided to join the staff.
21 Q. Okay. And so you have been here ever since
22 then?
23 A. Yes. I went back for a few weeks, yes, and I
24 have been back a few times, but, yes.
25 Q. All your family is back there?
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1 A. My mother is here and I'm here.
2 Q. Okay. What were your duties when you first
3 joined the staff?
4 A. When I first joined the staff, first thing I
5 did, I was in an organization called CMO. Basically my
6 duty there was to insure the staff of CMO were getting the
7 training and, you know, that they were doing that, and if
8 they needed help, to assist them in making sure they were
9 doing well, and post it, post meaning their job.
10 Q. Did you also take some courses?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Did you achieve a certain level of
13 courses?
14 A. Yes, we have -- umm, the first thing you do when
15 you come in is what is called Process Zero, it is a
16 certain lineup for that. I did that. Then I did Process
17 One, there is a certain lineup for that. And I have done
18 Key Life and LSC, and just recently completed the
19 organization executive course, basic staff member.
20 Q. Your position now with the church?
21 A. Right now I'm in training to be an ethics
22 officer, a magistrate, however you want to term it.
23 Prior to that, just recently, like I went onto
24 this about a month and a half ago, prior to that my post
25 was Inspections Officer, and my main duties were to insure
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 that the policies of the organization were being followed,
2 and if I got reports otherwise, to inspect and let the
3 executives know so they could be handled.
4 Q. I see. Okay. What was your position back in
5 November of `95?
6 A. Inspections officer.
7 Q. Inspections? Okay.
8 Had you ever met Lisa McPherson prior to
9 November of `95?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was your first contact with Lisa -- can you
12 describe that?
13 A. Well, I was asked to help her.
14 Q. Okay, who asked you?
15 A. Paul Kellerhous, P.K.
16 Q. Okay. And do you remember the conversation?
17 A. Not exactly. He talked to me and told me that
18 there is somebody who had been watching her and he needed
19 somebody else to go in and that person to be relieved. He
20 asked me to do that. I said okay.
21 He told me where it was. And that was the comm.
22 cycle, what I said.
23 Q. That was the comm. cycle?
24 A. Yes, that is like what was said.
25 Q. Comm. cycle means what?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Comm. cycle is basically communication from one
2 person to another.
3 Q. I got you.
4 A. Then acknowledging and understanding it back.
5 Q. Did he give you any indication as to exactly
6 what the situation was with this person that you were
7 going to watch, did he tell you --
8 A. Well, he did tell me that she was -- sorry for
9 cutting you off.
10 Q. No, go ahead.
11 A. He did tell me that she was -- she had been
12 violent priorly, and that other people had watched her,
13 but that she had, you know, like sometimes generally hit
14 them or something like that at times, not all of the time.
15 And that she was, umm, I don't know if you have
16 heard the terminology, at Type 3, and she was Type 3. And
17 so he needed somebody to watch her and to help her.
18 Q. Okay. And as far as your understanding went,
19 how long had she been at this -- she's in the cabana area
20 then?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How long had she been there?
23 A. I didn't know.
24 Q. Do you know now where you fit into this whole
25 thing, how many days she had been there?
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1 A. I think it was pretty recent. I don't know for
2 sure.
3 Q. You mean she just got there?
4 A. No, I mean I think it had been a few days. This
5 is just my own.
6 Q. All right, to help you, it may or may not help
7 you, there are a couple calendars there --
8 A. Yeah, I see them.
9 Q. -- on the desk. Starting in November, there is
10 a good reference point there at Thanksgiving.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And I will also indicate to you as assumed fact
13 that Lisa got there on the 18th.
14 A. Okay.
15 MR. McGARRY: Is that right, Lee?
16 AGENT STROPE: Yes.
17 BY MR. McGARRY:
18 Q. The 18th. I will indicate to you also as an
19 assumed fact that she left on the 5th of December. So
20 that will give you a little reference point if that helps
21 you at all. I don't know if it does.
22 A. That means I saw her on Wednesday, that I first
23 saw her on Wednesday.
24 Q. That would be Wednesday, the first Wednesday?
25 A. Yes.
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1 MR. LAURO: The 22nd?
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. The 22nd?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. LAURO: Right before Thanksgiving?
6 A. And it was about four o'clock I went in there
7 the first time.
8 BY MR. McGARRY:
9 Q. In the afternoon?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I remember it vividly.
13 Q. Can you describe your initial entry into the
14 cabana?
15 Was there anybody outside the door? Or do you
16 recall?
17 A. There was a security guard.
18 Q. Do you remember which one it was?
19 A. Not exactly. One person who was outside a lot
20 was Alphonso Barcenas, Sr., but I don't know if that is
21 who it was then.
22 Q. All right. When you went to the door, did he
23 assist you with the door? Or did you just walk in? Or
24 how did that work?
25 A. He -- I think he had a key so he probably opened
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 the door.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So do you know whether or not the door was
5 locked, or unlocked?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. And he let you in?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And when you got inside, did you -- was anybody
10 else in there besides Lisa?
11 A. Yes, there was someone else.
12 Q. Do you remember who that was?
13 A. No, not exactly.
14 Q. Okay. You are aware there is a number of girls
15 that were watching Lisa over this seventeen-day period?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Okay. And you just don't recall which one it
18 was--
19 A. Exactly.
20 Q. -- at that time?
21 A. I know most of them, so I couldn't say which
22 one.
23 Q. Well, I have twenty of them named here, and --
24 all right.
25 Do you recall whether or not that person left
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 and you stayed? Or whether or not the two of you stayed
2 together?
3 A. That person left. I stayed.
4 Q. Okay. Can you describe Lisa?
5 First of all, can you describe the room? How
6 many -- number of beds?
7 A. There were two beds. There was a dresser, maybe
8 two dressers, but kind of like a dresser set up.
9 All right, there was a bathroom, like a little
10 kind of before bathroom area, then the bathroom itself.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. And there was a lampshade on a hanging lamp.
13 There was, umm, -- that is what it was, pretty much.
14 Q. Okay. Can you describe Lisa as you first met
15 her?
16 A. How she looked? Or how she is?
17 Q. How she looked, to start with.
18 A. Okay, she was on the bed, sitting on the bed.
19 She was screaming things. I can tell you what they are if
20 you want. And she was just basically on the bed moving
21 her hands around, kicking the bed sometimes.
22 And, you know, when I first came in she did that
23 a little bit, then she stood up and came over to me.
24 Q. Did she acknowledge your presence when you
25 walked in the room?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Not directly, not like right when I came in.
2 Q. She didn't say "Who are you, what is your name?"
3 A. No.
4 Q. And I understand that you -- I'm just guessing
5 this, but you were under the policy of no talk?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Okay. And you were following that policy,
8 correct?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. So when she came up to you, what did she do?
11 A. Umm, she came up to me, kind of like she was
12 looking at me like she was challenging me was what I
13 understood or what I got from that.
14 And she made motions with her hands close to my
15 face. And I pushed her hands down. And she just kind of
16 stood really close to me. And it was like she was trying
17 to, you know what I mean, have --
18 Q. Intimidate you maybe?
19 A. Exactly, intimidate me. So I just stood there.
20 And she stood there. And then I sat down, I was right
21 next to the bed so I sat down on the bed, and I had a book
22 with me, so I just sat down on the bed.
23 And she kind of just went back to the bed is
24 what happened.
25 Q. Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How long was your watch?
3 A. That time?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I was there from four o'clock that afternoon,
6 until the next day, one-fifty.
7 Q. Allright.
8 MR. LAURO: One-fifty in the morning? Or
9 in the afternoon?
10 THE WITNESS: Afternoon.
11 MR. LAURO: Okay.
12 BY MR. McGARRY:
13 Q. Okay, were you given any instructions as to how
14 to proceed with her? I mean, eat, drink --
15 A. This is what I was told, right? She needs to --
16 we need to get her enough food and enough sleep so we can
17 get her on session. That is the purpose. We need to get
18 her --
19 Q. A session?
20 A. A session.
21 Q. That was for -- that is otherwise known as
22 introspective rundown?
23 A. Yes, that is what she would probably get.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. But that -- what my main intention should be, of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 course, keep her from harming herself, not harm me, and
2 try to get her to sleep and get her to eat. And that was
3 -- like that was what I was trying to do.
4 Q. Okay. This first watch, did you try to feed her
5 anything? Were you involved in the feeding?
6 A. Yes, well, the first watch I got her to, Mmm, --
7 she took -- I got her to sleep. She had some -- there
8 were these two -- like this herbal like Sleep-Easy or
9 something like that that I had, or I think they were in
10 the room or they were given to me, one of the two, and I
11 got her to take two of those, I don't remember, I wouldn't
12 testify to that, but I got her to take some. She slept, I
13 believe, five or six hours.
14 And the next morning I got her to eat some eggs
15 and toast and drink some water and, Mmm, I think another
16 vitamin --
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. -- within that period.
19 Q. So you had some at least marginal success in
20 getting her to eat and drink?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And rest?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Okay. I take it as we progress through some of
25 your watches it gets worse as far as that goes, eating and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 sleeping?
2 A. Yes, much worse. That was the first -- I was
3 just there, but that was the best I had gotten with her.
4 And it got progressively worse.
5 Q. After the 22nd, you say you left at one-fifty,
6 do you remember who came in and took over?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. Do you remember when -- do you
9 remember if, during that period of time on the 22nd,
10 anybody dropped by to check on her well-being, even just
11 for like thirty, forty minutes, whatever, like Dr. --
12 Janice Johnson or --
13 A. Well, you know, I don't know for sure. I do
14 know one time like I put my head out the door and I was
15 going to talk to the security guard. He was asking if she
16 was okay, because she was screaming and stuff, and he was
17 checking on me.
18 And I remember one time I looked out there and I
19 think Janice or someone was there. So I think they came
20 and talked to the guard, not to me, I'm not really sure,
21 but they didn't --
22 Q. But you don't recall during that -- on your
23 first watch, anybody else coming in --
24 A. Uh-uh.
25 Q. -- to see her?
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1 A. Uh-uh.
2 Q. At any time during that first watch did she ever
3 express a desire to you that she wanted to leave the room?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did she physically try to leave the room?
6 A. No. Well, there is one time, I don't exactly
7 remember when it was during the time, where she tried to
8 leave the room.
9 And she went to the door but she had no clothes
10 on, so I put her back and I actually got her dressed, but
11 then she didn't try it again.
12 Q. Okay. Is that, the no clothes business, was
13 that another piece of kind of bizarre behavior she was
14 exhibiting?
15 A. Yes. I mean, that is why she got -- how it was
16 kind of recognized in the first place. I know before she
17 was driving on the street, and you probably know --
18 Q. I heard that.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay. The next time that you were involved in a
21 watch is when?
22 A. Friday.
23 Q. And that would have been --
24 A. The 24th.
25 Q. The 24th?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Yup.
2 Q. All right. What time did you start that day?
3 A. I wasn't actually -- I wasn't supposed to do a
4 watch, so to speak, but I started at -- I think I went
5 there about ten or eleven o'clock. I was asked to go over
6 there.
7 Q. And do you remember who asked you to go over
8 there?
9 A. It was a security guard.
10 Q. And do you remember who was leaving as you were
11 coming?
12 A. No. When I came in there wasn't anybody
13 leaving, they were like -- Barbro was there, Joan was
14 there, P.K. was there.
15 And I was told -- asked to go over there because
16 basically she was violent and they needed -- and when I
17 was -- because when I was with her she was never violent
18 with me and she slept well and she ate, so they wanted me
19 to go over there.
20 So when I came in, there were--I think even
21 another person in the room--
22 Q. All right.
23 A. -- holding her.
24 Q. Okay. All right. This isn't a trick question,
25 I'm not by any stretch of the imagination trying to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 suggest that anybody is trying to confuse these days on
2 you. A lot of the people who have testified already about
3 this date that you are talking about, they think that it
4 might have been a Thursday. It doesn't really matter.
5 A. I know it wasn't Thursday.
6 Q. You think it was Friday?
7 A. I know it was Friday.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. LAURO: How can you be so sure?
10 THE WITNESS: Because I have an evolution
11 on Thursday, I have an evolution I do together, all of the
12 staffs of the organization, and it starts at two, and that
13 is why I got out, or not why, but that is one of the
14 things, you know, I have to do that. And other people
15 can't doing that.
16 Today, of course, I have other people doing
17 that. Right?
18 BY MR. McGARRY:
19 Q. Right.
20 A. I also prepare these stats so they can be shown
21 to all of the crew that night. So I know it wasn't that
22 night --
23 MR. LAURO: We are not challenging you, we
24 are just trying to find out how you would remember it so
25 clearly.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 BY MR. McGARRY:
2 Q. That is a good explanation.
3 And we are only within a day here so, you know,
4 it could easily be. We are talking some time ago.
5 So your watch that day started at what time?
6 A. Ten, eleven.
7 Q. Ball park?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you remember -- so you went in, and all
10 those people were already there. And it was a tough day
11 for Lisa, I guess?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Can you describe what you observed when
14 you walked into the room?
15 A. Okay. I came in, and she was on the bed. And
16 there was one person holding one of her arms, and one
17 person holding another arm, I don't remember who exactly.
18 P.K. was there, and I believe he was holding her
19 legs. And somebody was there, Mmm, I think with her --
20 holding her head or something like that.
21 That is what -- when I first came in, that is
22 what I saw. And I could tell -- well, whatever, that is
23 what I saw.
24 Q. Okay. Oh long did that scenario last?
25 A. Probably -- I mean, not exactly like that, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 mean, I came in and I started helping and she cooled off
2 within about an hour. That is approximate.
3 Q. All right. And at sometime did some of the
4 people leave that were there?
5 A. Uh-huh, yeah. P.K. left. And Alphonso -- there
6 were two incidents on this day, so it is kind of -- Mmm,
7 P.K. was there, gosh, P.K. left and Joan left, I remember,
8 because she had a black eye --
9 MR. LAURO: How do you spell Joan's last
10 name?
11 THE WITNESS: S T E V E N S.
12 MR. LAURO: Okay.
13 A. And then I think Barbro eventually left. That
14 is what I remember. And I left.
15 BY MR. McGARRY:
16 Q. Okay. So who stayed?
17 A. Well, I think there were other people that came
18 in. I wouldn't have left her alone. There were other
19 people that came in. So people kind of peeled off and
20 other people came in is kind of how it went.
21 And as soon as she was coo1ed down I left,
22 because I wasn't like coming for a watch, so to speak, I
23 was just asked to come over and help, because, you know.
24 Q. Okay. Do you ever recall Dr. Johnson being in
25 there on that incident? Was she in there on that one?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. I don't remember specifically. I remember
2 seeing her, I don't --
3 Q. I say Dr. Johnson, I guess she's not a doctor
4 here, she's Janice Johnson.
5 A. I call her Janice.
6 Q. How about a dentist by the name of Dr. --
7 A. David Houghton.
8 Q. Was he there?
9 A. He was there the second time.
10 Q. Okay. Was that sometime that same day?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Can you give me the circumstances -- well, what
13 happened after we got her calmed down and everybody left?
14 A. Well, some people stayed. I peeled off as soon
15 as possible, I had my duties and I thought other people
16 were doing that, so I peeled off.
17 Then later that afternoon, it was three o'clock,
18 four o'clock, I was asked to go over there again. I said
19 okay. So I went over.
20 And this time it was a similar scenario except
21 Barbro wasn't there and they weren't there. I was -- when
22 I came in the room, Alphonso Barcenas, Sr. was there. I
23 believe this is when David Houghton was there. He was
24 there at that time. I don't know if he was there when I
25 entered.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Then there were two other people there. I don't
2 remember exactly who they were.
3 Q. Okay. Well, why was everybody there on that
4 occasion?
5 A. Well, similar thing. She had gotten violent or
6 whatever and so, fine, I came in and helped.
7 And somebody was holding her arm, the other arm,
8 her leg, her leg, and her head.
9 And then, you know, then she was on one bed, we
10 were going to -- it was like all messed up and everything
11 and also it was -- we just needed to move her to another
12 bed.
13 So we moved her over to the other bed. And,
14 Mmm, that is where we were going to give her whatever Dave
15 Houghton had, he had a pink liquid in a syringe with
16 something else, I don't know.
17 Q. You say syringe, this is more of a basting
18 syringe, not an injection type of syringe?
19 A. No. Mouth.
20 MR. LAURO: Not intravenous syringe but
21 oral syringe?
22 THE WITNESS: Right, definitely.
23 BY MR. McGARRY:
24 Q. Okay, so the purpose of this restraining was to
25 prevent what?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. To prevent her from hurting herself, from
2 hurting others. That is basically it.
3 Q. Okay. And was the doctor successful in his
4 endeavor with the oral syringe?
5 A. Yes. What we did, right, eventually we moved
6 her over, is we gave her the syringe, then we just kind of
7 let go and eased off.
8 Q. Did he tell you what was in that syringe?
9 A. He said something, a name of it, and I didn't
10 get what it was. I wouldn't be able to tell you.
11 Q. Okay. Did there come a period of time where she
12 calmed down then?
13 A. Yeah. She was moaning right after that a little
14 bit, and she wasn't being violent, or she wasn't like
15 waving her arms around or something like that. She was
16 just moaning, basically. And that was it.
17 Q. All right. And that is in the afternoon on that
18 day on Friday?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long did you stay that day?
21 A. Maybe an hour. Hour, hour and a half.
22 Q. All right. Did somebody come and relieve you at
23 that point?
24 A. There were other people there when I was there,
25 and so I left when she calmed down.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Janice on that day, did
2 she come in?
3 A. I saw her, I remember seeing her, I don't
4 remember which incident it was. I am pretty sure she
5 wasn't there the second time.
6 Q. Okay. Did you notice, from the first day to the
7 second day that you were in the watch, I guess there is a
8 two-day period there, other than the mental aspects of
9 this that you have described, did you notice any physical
10 decline on Lisa?
11 A. Not in those two days, no.
12 Q. She still had her strength and her weight?
13 A. Yes. I mean, people have asked me or I have
14 been asked, well, by him (indicating Mr. Lauro), and also
15 the attorneys for the church.
16 MR. LAURO: All right, one thing,
17 discussions between your counsel or the church's counsel
18 are protected by a privilege so you really can't get into
19 that.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 MR. LAURO: Other than that, you can give
22 the true facts of what you recall.
23 A. All right. I didn't notice any great weight
24 loss from the beginning to the end until it was asked,
25 then I kind of looked at it and I said, yeah, well,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 actually, it was. But just from that time I didn't notice
2 a great weight loss.
3 BY MR. McGARRY:
4 Q. All right. You had another watch after that?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. When was that?
7 A. I don't remember exactly which day it started.
8 It might have been a Sunday or Monday, or even Saturday,
9 I'm not really sure.
10 Q. Of that weekend coming up?
11 A. Yeah, somewhere around there.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. I'm not really sure exactly when.
14 Q. All right. Can you describe that one if you
15 would, please.
16 A. Well, I was asked -- basically I was told I was
17 going to be put on it full-time versus my normal duties
18 because when I was with her she did well. That was what I
19 was told.
20 So I started -- I don't remember exactly what
21 she looked like when I came in because it is kind of after
22 that point --
23 AGENT STROPE: When would this be? Could
24 we clarify?
25 MR. McGARRY: She thinks it is the Sunday
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
27
1 or Monday, that would be 26th or 27th.
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. Correct?
4 A. Yeah. I mean --
5 Q. I mean, ball park? I'm not going to hold you to
6 it, but --
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. All right? You can go ahead and continue.
9 A. So, I mean, I don't remember specifically when I
10 came in that time. There is no vivid reason I would
11 remember that.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. So -- but, you know, I do remember generally in
14 the beginning she was -- you know, I would come in, she
15 would be screaming or this or that, and, you know,
16 sometimes she would get up and walk around, or that type
17 of thing. And, you know, I would just keep an eye on her.
18 I would watch her.
19 And at night specifically, you know, I would put
20 her to bed and try to make her sleep, I mean, try to make
21 her sleep. Put her in bed, and she would lie in bed and
22 talk and that.
23 What can you do?
24 Q. How about her eating situation, as far as those
25 -- that watch was concerned?
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1 A. Well, I know that we brought food for her. And
2 even protein drinks, liquids. One time we spoon-fed her a
3 liquid like water or juice or something, something.
4 But she just -- it was like she wasn't -- you
5 know, when I gave it to her on the Thursday morning when I
6 did get her to eat eggs and toast, I basically -- I mean,
7 by hand motions, that kind of communication, I got her to
8 understand I wanted her to eat it and she did it. It
9 wasn't like I fed it to her, you know what I mean?
10 And these other times it was like she wasn't --
11 you know, it wasn't even communicative, you know, I could
12 do that and have her understand it.
13 Q. I got you. Do you remember who was with you on
14 this third watch that you had here?
15 A. I think there were -- okay, I know that Silvia
16 DelaVega was on it for some time. I know Laura was on it.
17 And who is the other one? Susan Green, she was on that
18 sometime. Rita Boykin. It varied during those people
19 that I was on it pretty much the whole time.
20 But I know it was myself and Rita, and it was
21 Silvia for some time, and I believe it was Susan or Laura,
22 one of the two for the other time. Laura, I remember
23 Laura more
24 Q. All right, did she exhibit any really crazy
25 bizarre behavior during this time? Was it getting more
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29
1 and more bizarre as far as her Type 3 situation was going?
2 A. Well --
3 Q. I mean, did she use the bathroom on her own?
4 Was she making a mess in the bed? Did she undress? Did
5 she--
6 A. Yes, she did that. I mean, it was pretty much
7 from when I came in that was the situation. She started
8 to, during the time, like defecate on the bed, you know,
9 or in her clothes. And we changed her clothes, you know.
10 That was more what was happening.
11 I mean, I don't really remember, I think there
12 was only one time I remember she actually went to the
13 bathroom on her own. Then she locked herself in the
14 bathroom.
15 Q. On any of these other occasions here that you
16 had, or these next two watches we just talked about, did
17 Lisa ever indicate she wanted to leave to you, communicate
18 that to you? Or did she ever try to leave?
19 A. She never said it. And aside from the time I
20 told you, she never tried to, not with me.
21 Q. How about visits from any of the MLO people, did
22 you see any of that?
23 A. Personally, I don't remember any.
24 Q. Did David qualify, was he in the MLO office?
25 A. He was but he was a dentist. I mean, I knew he
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 was a dentist, not a doctor. But, I mean, he didn't come
2 by either, you know, that I recall.
3 Q. Other than that one time?
4 A. Yes. I'm pretty sure they came by, but I can't
5 say yes, I know they came by, or I couldn't say when.
6 Q. All right. How about did you ever see
7 Mr. Kartuzinski, did he ever drop by?
8 A. One time he came, I don't remember exactly when.
9 But he didn't come in the room, he was outside of the
10 room. And because there was another person there, I
11 think, I just saw him, I went out and I talked to him.
12 And like he asked how she was doing. And I said
13 normal. Or like how she's been doing. I didn't remember
14 that before. And that was it.
15 Q. Okay. Was there another watch that you
16 participated in?
17 A. Well, I was there throughout that time up until
18 her death.
19 Q. Oh, you were?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So now we can go straight on through all of the
22 way? You were pretty much continuous from that Sunday or
23 Monday on through?
24 A. Yes, I was. Like I said, I was being put on it
25 full-time.
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1 Q. All right. Did you write reports on these
2 things?
3 A. I wrote some reports toward the end, yes.
4 MR. McGARRY: All right, do we have any of
5 these, Lee?
6 AGENT STROPE: No.
7 THE WITNESS: I think they are in her PC
8 folder. It should be priest penitent.
9 MR. McGARRY: I don't know whether I ought
10 to waste any time for you to go through and say you don't
11 have any in there.
12 THE WITNESS: Well, are those typed? Mine
13 were handwritten.
14 MR. McGARRY: No, these are something else.
15 MR. LAURO: These are reports produced by
16 the church.
17 BY MR. McGARRY:
18 Q. These are reports they have given us we have
19 requested. And I don't think I have seen yours in there.
20 But if you would go through those, if you see any
21 handwriting or something in there, then you can let us
22 know.
23 A. Valerie was there, that's right. Hmm, pages and
24 pages.
25 I don't remember these, no.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
32
1 Q. Okay. Do you recall specifically any reports
2 from the first couple watches? Or were they more from --
3 A. No, they were toward the end.
4 Q. Okay. And when you wrote these reports, do you
5 remember how many of them there were you did?
6 A. I know I did three, at least. There might have
7 been four or five. But I remember three that I did
8 specifically.
9 Q. Okay. And did you hand those reports to
10 somebody?
11 A. One of them I brought up there myself to his
12 office.
13 Q. Up there?
14 A. Alain's office. Another one I think I gave to
15 someone to bring up there. I don't remember who I gave it
16 to. But this is what I remember.
17 I saw one of the reports that they were writing,
18 and from my view it was not sufficient data and it was
19 more how the people watching her were doing.
20 Q. These other reports you are talking about?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Like we just looked at right here?
23 A. Yes, from my view it was more the people that
24 were watching her, how they were doing with it, versus how
25 Lisa was doing.
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33
1 And I went, well, that is not what they need to
2 know, you know, I mean, whatever they did write about her,
3 but not enough, not -- anyway.
4 So then I wrote up -- I wrote up a report saying
5 I don't think you have all of the data from the report
6 that I have seen, you know, this is the data, this is how
7 she has been doing, and it is a situation that we need to
8 change something.
9 And I think I wrote, let's see, it was December
10 5th that she --
11 Q. She died.
12 A. All right, here is the 5th, so it is probably
13 around the 1st or the 2nd, something like that, when I
14 wrote the first report, or maybe even earlier, but it was
15 something like that.
16 Q. Okay, one of them was directly handed to --
17 MR. LAURO: To his office.
18 BY MR. McGARRY:
19 Q. Alain's?
20 A. Yes, to his office.
21 Q. The others were given to possibly the security
22 guard or left somewhere for somebody else?
23 A. Yes. I mean, I didn't leave them somewhere. I
24 would either ask somebody to bring it to him. I never
25 personally saw him and gave him one.
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1 Q. All right. Now, do you have any objection of
2 either of us reading those reports in the event we obtain
3 them from the church?
4 A. I don't have an objection to it.
5 Q. Can you recall anything on those reports that
6 would be important to our investigation that I haven't
7 asked you in reference to this period of time here?
8 A. Well, I don't know exactly what you would want
9 to know, but --
10 Q. We are just asking about her life in these last
11 few days, what was going on.
12 MR. LAURO: Rather than anticipating what
13 Mr. McGarry wants, why don't you just recite factually
14 what was in the report.
15 A. All right, this is what I know I wrote in the
16 report.
17 BY MR. McGARRY:
18 Q. All right.
19 A. I wrote she's continuing to scream, you know,
20 just things over and over. She's defecating on the bed.
21 She's -- she doesn't walk around as much. She is sleeping
22 less. She -- we tried to give her protein drinks, we
23 tried to give her like eggs, whatever we could give her,
24 and I haven't been able to succeed.
25 And that we need to change something, she's not
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
35
1 getting better so we need to change something.
2 And that -- I mean, that was the basic -- that
3 is what I know I said, you know, we need to change
4 something.
5 You know, I thought and what I wrote in the
6 report was it would be best if we put her in another
7 position, like another space, you know what I mean, a
8 place where we could take her out for a walk, you know, if
9 she went crazy or whatever or took off all her clothes, it
10 would be okay and we could just, you know, bring her back
11 to the room or something like that.
12 Q. You were going to say why we might not have
13 gotten these reports, they might have gone somewhere else?
14 A. I don't think that they have gone somewhere
15 else, but from --
16 Q. I know there are different channels reports go
17 to within the church.
18 A. I know, but I knew it was going to go to Alain.
19 It is not that I thought they wouldn't have gotten to him,
20 I'm pretty sure they got to him.
21 But I think that, you know, probably you are
22 going to look at did they actually get into his hands,
23 that is what you want to know, then you would have to --
24 you couldn't say, well, I said I think I gave it to him,
25 you couldn't use that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Q. I'm just trying -- I would just like to see
2 them. I think they would be important to read, so I'm
3 just trying to get to where they are.
4 A. I believe, I'm pretty sure, that they are in her
5 PC folder, which is --
6 MR. LAURO: Have you seen those reports
7 since the time that you wrote them?
8 THE WITNESS: I have a vague recollection
9 that I saw them with her folder, but I couldn't promise
10 you that.
11 MR. LAURO: Okay.
12 BY MR. McGARRY:
13 Q. What is the PC folder?
14 A. It contains all her priest penitent information,
15 all of her confessional data, all of the processing that
16 she's received, and, you know, it as got -- yes, and as
17 far as I know, it is priest penitent information.
18 Q. Okay. But to make it clear what these reports
19 are, these are reports of observations that you made? You
20 didn't write down things that she was saying to you, did
21 you?
22 A. Well, I said some of the things she was saying,
23 yeah.
24 Q. You did do that?
25 A. Yeah.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Q. All right. Now, let's talk about this week
2 here. So you had a pretty tough week, I take it, all of
3 the way from that Sunday, you and Silvia, I assume,
4 because she was there a lot, too?
5 A. Yup.
6 Q. All of the way to the 5th?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So being that we're talking about one, two,
11 three, four --
12 A. Well, there was a shift of three, I think, there
13 were two --
14 Q. We are talking about nine more days here. And
15 are you saying that you are off and on for that whole
16 period?
17 A. Yes. There was a shift set up, like there were
18 always two people in the room at all times, or able to be
19 there. And so the three of us, we were on, Mmm, a
20 sixteen, sixteen-hour shifts.
21 Q. Sixteen-hour shifts?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Wow. Would you ever do this again if somebody
24 asked you to do it?
25 A. Yup.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Q. That is a long shift for somebody acting like
2 that.
3 Now, it looks like it might be kind of difficult
4 in this dialogue we are having here for me to break this
5 down into specific memories you might have through all
6 these days. Would you say that is a fair statement?
7 A. Yeah. I remember the last day pretty --
8 Q. Let's talk about the last day, the 5th.
9 A. Okay, so I came on at nine o'clock, I think I
10 arrived nine, nine-thirty.
11 Over the last prior few days I noticed she was
12 less active, you know. Priorly, she -- when I first came
13 she had been walking around. Then she crawled, she was
14 starting crawling around. And I didn't know at the time
15 if it was a mental thing or if it was a physical thing
16 like strength, or if she was just being weird.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. And then she -- the last day was like -- the day
19 before she had been, you know, kind of just not moving
20 around so much, she wasn't talking so much. And priorly
21 it was like a broken record, just all of the time, you
22 know. And, you know, she was mumbling. And it was, you
23 know, it was kind of like -- toward the end, it was
24 alarming, you know.
25 I didn't -- I didn't think, you know, she should
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1 go to the hospital, although maybe, you know, from this
2 viewpoint maybe a year now later, I should have said yes.
3 But at that time I didn't think that.
4 And, Hmm, I was there until about, let's see, I
5 think I left at six or six-thirty, something like that,
6 might have been five-thirty.
7 Q. Who was there with you that day?
8 A. It was half shifts. The way it went, a person
9 would come on at like twelve or four o'clock, something
10 like that. So in the morning --
11 Q. Rita maybe?
12 A. Yeah, probably Rita. In the afternoon it was,
13 Hmm, Laura.
14 Q. Possibly Laura?
15 A. Yeah, it might have been Laura, possibly Rita.
16 I don't remember.
17 Then, in any case, so I was -- you know, it was
18 like the place was kind of -- you know, she had been there
19 in the bed a while. Wanted to change sheets.
20 Q. This is on the 5th we are talking?
21 A. Yes, this whole thing is the 5th, right.
22 Also, she herself, you could only bed-wash her
23 because she wasn't herself taking a shower or something
24 like that.
25 So we decided, like I think four o'clock, we
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1 were going to give her a bath. Now I feel stupid about
2 it. But, anyway, that is what happened.
3 Q. A real bath?
4 A. Yeah, like a real bath.
5 Q. In the tub?
6 A. Yeah. It is not like we filled the bathtub with
7 water. But we put water in the tub.
8 She couldn't walk to the tub. We had to
9 physically carry her there. That is when I got pretty
10 worried.
11 So we gave her a bath and her hair and whatever.
12 And then we put her back in the bed and we dressed her.
13 And we changed the sheets, I believe, one of us must have
14 changed the sheets while the other was giving her a bath.
15 Then it was about, I don't know, half an hour --
16 Q. Well, did she do any talking during this period
17 of time?
18 A. She was mumbling a lot. She didn't talk really.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. It was like --
21 Q. But, I mean, was she doing things? I mean, was
22 she acknowledging things?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Or doing things?
25 A. She wasn't acknowledging things, she never
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
41
1 acknowledged things particularly. But she was -- she was
2 mumbling.
3 Then, you know, when we put her in the bath, it
4 was -- she stopped talking for a while, you know. And, I
5 mean --
6 Q. Could she hold herself up in the bath?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Was she sitting in a position, or lying --
9 A. We were holding her. She was sitting in the
10 bath, that is because we were holding her.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. And I went to dinner at around that time.
13 Q. And left her with Rita and Laura?
14 A. Rita or Laura, it was one of them. One of them
15 was there.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. And that is when I left. Then I came back and
18 she was gone.
19 Q. Okay. So you know now that she went and took a
20 trip to the hospital with Laura and Paul and Janice?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay. So you are saying that on the 5th that
23 you recall her crawling around the floor?
24 A. No, not on the 5th.
25 Q. Not on the 5th?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. No. What I was telling you was up to where I
2 started relating -- well, what I was telling you was how
3 she had kind of -- I remember she degenerated.
4 I do remember on the 5th that she wasn't moving
5 around so much, she was like moving her arms some and
6 mumbling, but wasn't --
7 Q. Okay, and what position are you observing this
8 from, she's in her bed, or on the floor?
9 A. Yeah, in her bed. In her bed.
10 I mean, there was one time when she fell on the
11 floor. Like she rolled over or whatever and she fell on
12 the floor. So I picked her back up and put her back on
13 the bed, of course.
14 Q. So the crawling on the floor business was the
15 previous day?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The 4th?
18 A. And probably sometime before that she was also
19 walking and crawling.
20 Q. So you are a witness to somewhat of an obvious
21 decline of her physical -- her physical control here --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- during this last, what did you say, three
24 days, four days?
25 A. Yes. It was more, what do you call it, sharp.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Q. Sharply?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. So when would you say that the things
4 started rolling down the hill? When would you say that
5 really began as far as the physical, not mental aspect
6 because I realize this whole thing is pretty bizarre
7 behavior, but the physical aspect of it, when would you
8 say that started rolling downhill?
9 A. I would probably -- I think three days before
10 like really, you know. Before it wasn't that noticeable,
11 it wasn't that -- so I couldn't say clearly.
12 Q. All right. And during this period of time was
13 there anybody from the MLO that was coming by that you
14 specifically recall stopping by checking on her?
15 A. Not that I recall, no.
16 Q. Do you remember seeing Janice or Laura?
17 A. I don't remember. I mean, I know who they are.
18 Q. Did you ever see David Houghton again after that
19 first time?
20 A. Uh-uh.
21 THE REPORTER: Your answer?
22 A. No. I could be wrong. I just don't directly
23 recall.
24 Q. Okay. How about the lack of appetite situation
25 that was developing here toward the end up until the 5th?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Uh-huh? What of it?
2 Q. Well, I'm concerned here because -- if you could
3 give me your observations of this, but it sounds like
4 she's being -- being troublesome to feed?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Both drink and food?
7 A. Yes. There were some days where we would
8 spoon-feed her. I mean, it is not like we sat there and
9 she just took it. Sometimes she just took it. And
10 sometimes we would have to, you know, open her mouth and
11 put it there, whatever. But we needed to get her
12 nutrition.
13 Q. Right. Obviously you were concerned about that.
14 It sounds like there was some measures taken to get
15 whatever you could down her throat.
16 But were there any -- were there any days that
17 were going by toward the 5th here that you were thinking
18 to yourself, you know, I don't think she had anything to
19 eat today, had there been days like that?
20 A. Yeah. I don't remember specific day. I do know
21 -- I wouldn't say any day from that first day that I was
22 there and I gave her something to eat she ate sufficiently
23 after that, and not even what I gave her would have been
24 sufficient. I wouldn't say there was any day that she ate
25 sufficiently.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 And from my viewpoint at the time, I thought --
2 I wrote my reports and that was kind of what I thought I
3 could do about it, you know. And, you know, I said, hey,
4 we need to change something, she's not eating, we need to
5 do something. I was like getting frantic, do you know
6 what I mean?
7 But I was there, I was doing the watch, and I
8 had eight hours to go home, sleep and come back in. And I
9 -- it wasn't like I had an extra hour to go figure out
10 what else could be done. Do you know what I mean?
11 Q. Right. On the 4th and 5th here could you see
12 signs of dehydration, observable signs? I mean, like I
13 could say signs of dehydration, dry mouth or --
14 A. Her mouth was dry, yeah.
15 Q. Okay. How about as far as respiration is
16 concerned, were there any abnormalities you can observe
17 from that standpoint from the 4th and 5th?
18 A. Any what?
19 MR. LAURO: Her breathing.
20 A. Yeah?
21 MR. LAURO: What did you notice about her
22 breathing?
23 BY MR. McGARRY:
24 Q. Any abnormalities? Abnormalities, any roughness
25 in breathing, either, you know, shortness of breath or --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
46
1 A. When I was first there, she -- I mean, she
2 talked a lot, so she was obviously taking in breath.
3 Q. Right.
4 A. And sometimes she would -- she would do
5 abnormalities which were just because of her mental state.
6 And later I did notice, though, on the 5th day
7 more specifically than the 4th --
8 Q. On the 5th day?
9 MR. LAURO: 5th of December?
10 A. Right, on the 5th of December more than on the
11 4th of December, she's not breathing much, I mean, she was
12 breathing but it was less.
13 Q. Shorter breaths?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know, obviously some measures were
16 taken on the 5th because obviously the level of concern
17 reached a point sometime after you left that someone was
18 going to do something?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Was that discussed with you with anybody prior
21 to that actually taking place?
22 A. No. I only have an understanding, like I have
23 only been told what occurred.
24 But when I was there I was just worried myself,
25 and I was writing my reports, and I didn't quite -- I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 didn't talk about it with -- I mean, I did talk about it
2 with the person I was with, but nobody else, that was it.
3 Q. Okay, so these last -- you are indicating these
4 last two if not three days it became a physical concern to
5 you that things weren't happening with her?
6 A. Yeah. I mean -- I mean, one obvious thing to
7 me, right, I eat, I sleep, I need to eat, I get hungry,
8 what about her, you know? She's not eating and she's not
9 sleeping enough. Sure, okay, she's lying on the bed.
10 There is a difference, you know.
11 Q. Right.
12 A. I mean, I'm not medically trained, but you don't
13 have to be medically trained to realize a person has got
14 to eat.
15 Q. Right. Do you recall any sleeping medication
16 being administered or an injection by Janice to help her
17 sleep, or to soothe her from some --
18 A. I remember her coming once. Want me to tell you
19 what I remember?
20 Q. Sure.
21 A. But this is just what I think.
22 Q. Best you can. That is all we're looking for.
23 A. Okay. I remember her coming once. And she did
24 give her, I believe, an intravenous injection of some sort
25 in her butt, I believe. I remember that now. And I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 remember that, that one time.
2 She got, I think, three or four hours sleep
3 after that.
4 Q. Do you remember, did she ever tell you what that
5 was?
6 A. No -- she might have but I don't remember.
7 Q. Who else was present for that?
8 A. Myself and the other person watching her, as far
9 as I can remember.
10 Q. Do you happen to remember who that was?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could it have been Valerie maybe?
13 A. Valerie DeMons?
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. I didn't stand watch with her very much, I don't
16 think so.
17 Q. How about those chlorhydrate prescription
18 tablets, I believe she was taking some of those to help
19 her sleep, too. Do you remember any of those?
20 A. I remember it might have been that, what the
21 doctor said he put -- the doctor, what the dentist said he
22 put in what we gave her on the -- what is it, on the 24th.
23 I think it was on the 24th, that Friday.
24 MR. LAURO: Did he say specifically it was
25 chlorhydrate? Or do you know --
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1 A. It sounds like it. I couldn't -- I wouldn't bet
2 on it. And I remember he put a pill in this liquid. It
3 was like a pinkish color liquid. And -- yeah.
4
5 BY MR. McGARRY:
6 Q. So to the best of your recollection when you
7 left on the 5th it would have been either Laura or Rita --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- or one or the other that remained behind?
10 A. Yeah, that is right.
11 Q. I take it that the watch was reduced to one
12 person later in the game here because she was clearly not
13 as physical as she was?
14 A. No. It is not that it was reduced to one
15 person. It was a sixteen-hour shift, but then you have a
16 person there and you can go and eat and come back, and
17 then they can go and eat and come back. And most of the
18 time there are two people there.
19 Q. But the physical nature of the watch was
20 somewhat reduced because of her -- I assume because of her
21 loss of strength toward the end?
22 A. I mean, your concern for yourself physically
23 was, yes.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. It wasn't particularly a concern for me anyway.
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1 Q. So the morning -- let's go to the morning of the
2 5th, you actually heard her, she was actually talking but
3 it was more mumbling?
4 A. It was mumbling.
5 Q. And she was moving to some degree even though it
6 wasn't --
7 A. Nothing great.
8 Q. -- nothing with any particular mission, but arms
9 moving?
10 A. Yes, they were flying around in the air, which
11 they were before, but they were kind of like (gesturing),
12 I don't know how you would write that, kind of jerking her
13 arms around.
14 And, I mean, one time she fell on the floor, and
15 she didn't get there, you know, by the air or something.
16 It might have even been more than once, because I remember
17 staying there so she wouldn't do it again.
18 Q. Right. Do you recall any conversations that
19 anybody had with a Dr. Minkoff in I believe that is New
20 Port Richey?
21 A. No. I mean, I know him personally, but I didn't
22 even know there was a comm. cycle with him.
23 Q. How do you know Dr. Minkoff?
24 A. My prior job, he's -- he used to get processing
25 where I was -- I was running the administration of the
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1 processing, so I knew him. I know Bennetta. That is how
2 I knew them. But I didn't know Lisa.
3 Q. Does Dr. Minkoff treat a lot of staff members
4 that you know of, if you know?
5 A. I know -- I mean, yeah. Not a lot, a huge
6 amount. But a fair amount. We have people that are going
7 to do the purification rundown and they see him. You
8 know, sometimes I -- I had another person I was assisting
9 one time and he came and saw her. So I mean, fairly, more
10 than any other doctor I know, but --
11 Q. But he -- I mean, he's a member of the church,
12 but he's certainly not a member of staff?
13 A. He's not staff, no.
14 Q. He just helps out?
15 A. Yeah, he's a parishioner.
16 Q. Do you recall being summoned to a gathering
17 after this, after Lisa died, in which there was a
18 conversation -- I believe Marcus Quirino would have been
19 the one that summoned everybody but, there was a
20 conversation about the concern with this and --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- and maybe she had an infectious disease?
23 A. I wasn't at the meeting that said maybe she had
24 this or maybe she had that.
25 I was called to a meeting with all of the people
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1 involved. It wasn't a meeting so to speak.
2 Q. That is why I used the word "gathering." I
3 didn't really know what it was.
4 A. We were all called up to the office. And then
5 Marcus interviewed me. He was asking me, you know, what
6 happened and, you know, what I knew, basically.
7 And I don't remember what I told him, but I
8 talked to him and he was taking notes. And that was
9 basically it.
10 After I talked to him, then I think the other
11 people were also there waiting and -- waiting to talk to
12 him or whatever. I know that much.
13 Q. Do you know what the purpose of all that was?
14 A. Well, I mean, obviously, I mean, it was our
15 executives, and they wanted to know what happened and they
16 were concerned.
17 Q. It didn't look good?
18 A. Yeah, right. Exactly.
19 Q. I can understand that.
20 Did you write a report for him, or did he take
21 notes from --
22 A. He took notes.
23 Q. -- from your conversation?
24 A. Uh-huh. Oh, that is right, I also wrote a
25 report, I was asked to write a report. All of the people
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1 that were there were asked to write a report, I think, or
2 I know I was asked to write a report of everything what I
3 remembered, what happened and how she was doing.
4 Q. Would that been the 5th, or 6th?
5 A. That would have been the 5th like -- yes, the
6 5th, probably about midnight or something like that by the
7 time it was. And --
8 Q. And that report was a summary of your whole --
9 the whole thing? Or was that just --
10 A. It was -- I mean, my report was, I don't know,
11 three or four pages, I think. I think.
12 You jogged my memory well.
13 Q. Believe me, I have been talking to a lot of
14 people. Of course, everybody remembers things a little
15 differently, but that is to be expected.
16 A. But it was both, I wrote a report and he also
17 took notes.
18 Q. His title was Deputy Chief --
19 A. Officer.
20 Q. -- Officer. It is different now, right? What
21 is he now?
22 A. He's Senior D of P for Department 12 processing.
23 Department 12 is just a section of the organization.
24 Q. I'm not going to ask what all that is.
25 A. Director of Processing.
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1 Q. Now, Mr. Kartuzinski is not doing the same thing
2 any more that he used to?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What does he do now?
5 A. Right now he's in training full-time, I think
6 since -- well, since not long after that, or like a few
7 months after that, he stopped doing that.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. I know.
10 Q. It sounds like he got a demotion out of this
11 whole thing.
12 A. Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, definitely.
13 Q. And Susan now Green, I believe her maiden name
14 was Schnurenburger (phonetic)?
15 A. Yes?
16 Q. She also has now been -- they interchanged
17 places, Judy and --
18 A. Yes, Judy Goldsbery-Weber was taken out of the
19 -- no, Susan left, she was -- and I think she's not even
20 on staff anymore, and then Judy was taken out of the area
21 later and she's no longer in the area, medical office.
22 Q. Right. Sounds like they revamped the whole thing
23 after this blew up.
24 A. Well, yeah, definite concern. Also Janice isn't
25 doing what she's doing. But Dave is still a dentist.
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1 Q. Now, is he actually -- does he have an office in
2 there? Or--
3 A. Dave?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Yes, he's licensed.
6 Q. Does he have his office right in the church?
7 A. Yes, second floor.
8 Q. You go see him?
9 A. Yes, I got my teeth cleaned.
10 Q. He does all of the dental work for everybody?
11 A. Yes. I got my cavities cleaned out recently.
12 Q. Wow. Full service operation there.
13 A. Just about, yeah.
14 MR. McGARRY: You know, I think that is all
15 I have, but if you could afford a little more patience, if
16 you want to take a break you are welcome to, and Lee here
17 probably has some questions.
18 AGENT STROPE: If you want to take a break.
19 MR. LAURO: Do you mind?
20 AGENT STROPE: No, because it will be a few
21 minutes for me.
22 (Recess taken.)
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY AGENT STROPE:
25 Q. I have got a few questions.
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1 A. Okay, shoot.
2 Q. I am at a disadvantage because I can't go -- I
3 don't go chronologically. Mark is sitting at the head of
4 the table so he gets to go first. So by the time it gets
5 around to me, everything I have is notes and it is
6 fragmentalized and it is not always in order, so just bear
7 with me.
8 A. I will.
9 Q. Do you have any medical training at all?
10 A. No.
11 Q. None whatsoever?
12 A. None. Just what mother taught me.
13 Q. Is your mother medically trained.
14 A. No, I mean what a kid learns from their mom.
15 Q. Well, sometimes that is better.
16 It seems like you are about the only person that
17 was involved in this watch that didn't have medical
18 training. Do you think there is a reason for that?
19 A. I don't think they chose me specifically or
20 something, I don't think so, no. I mean --
21 Q. You think maybe they chose you, then found out
22 you maybe did a good job so they asked you back, is that
23 it?
24 A. I think that is why they asked me back because I
25 did a good job with her. I don't think they looked at it
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1 as a qualification.
2 Q. Well, let me say up front I think it is
3 refreshing to have someone that at least admits that
4 something had to be done other than what was done, so I
5 want to commend you for that.
6 A. Well--
7 MR. LAURO: If he makes a comment you don't
8 need to respond, just to questions, but that is okay.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 BY AGENT STROPE:
11 Q. Okay, are you familiar with the term "Committee
12 of Evidence"?
13 A. Very.
14 Q. Ever sat on a Committee of Evidence?
15 A. Yup.
16 Q. Did you sit on a Committee of Evidence for this
17 case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was there a Committee of Evidence for this case?
20 A. No, not specifically this case. What I mean by
21 that is a Committee of Evidence was done on Alain
22 Kartuzinski. It did not refer to this case, it was not --
23 this case was not a part of it. But when -- I wrote the
24 bill of particulars.
25 Q. Excuse me, are the bill of particulars like a
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1 charging document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The reason the whole committee was initiated?
4 A. Yes, it is charges, yeah.
5 MR. LAURO: One thing, they may relate to
6 theological or ecumenical
7 AGENT STROPE: No.
8 MR. LAURO: I don't want you to get into
9 things not having to do with this case. If there is a
10 church issue relating to Alain, that is not relevant to
11 this case.
12 THE WITNESS: I get it.
13 MR. LAURO: Privilege goes to that.
14 BY AGENT STROPE:
15 Q. I understand and agree with what he's saying.
16 If there was a Committee of Evidence or a similar body
17 that was convened to deal with the death of Lisa
18 McPherson, that is what I'm interested in.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. I understand Alain has had some problems?
21 A. No. There was no Committee of Evidence on this,
22 no.
23 Q. Is there a reason for that?
24 A. I believe it is because that it was -- there was
25 this legal whatever, you know, the legal side of it. That
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1 is my understanding of why that would be.
2 Q. Okay. But I'm kind of lost here. I know for a
3 fact that Alain Kartuzinski, Janice Johnson, I believe
4 Arthur Baxter and a couple other people got transfers that
5 I consider demotions. I mean, when you go from MLO to
6 word clearer, I don't care what you call it, it is a
7 demotion.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. And there were demotions that came out of this
10 incident?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And so someone was blamed for something. And I
13 thought that the church's mode of handling these things
14 was a Committee of Evidence.
15 Is there another way that that is handled?
16 A. Mmm, not that I know of. I know that -- I know
17 that there were legal things occurring directly after
18 this, as far as I know.
19 Q. What do you mean by legal things?
20 A. Well, you know, I'm sure I knew the police were
21 concerned.
22 Q. You are talking about police investigation?
23 A. Yes, exactly.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. So I knew there was that occurring. And from my
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1 understanding -- okay, from the church's viewpoint we are
2 going to say, okay, we have these people that didn't do
3 things that were well or right on this, there is a police
4 investigation going on, and, you know, maybe they just
5 said, and this is a maybe, right, maybe they just said,
6 well, you know, they have the investigation there and we,
7 in turn, also have investigations which are just
8 investigations, which are not like, you know, called
9 investigations, boards of investigations type of thing.
10 Q. I understand. You have answered my question.
11 A. But that is like what I think they did.
12 Q. From what I have learned, and I'm a novice, I
13 mean, I have only been learning since January 1st and I
14 continue to learn --
15 A. Really? January 1st? In this case?
16 Q. I'm not going to be taking a test or anything.
17 But I learned a lot about the organization and about how
18 minute details are everyday practice. And so I have got
19 an idea how things are run. Okay? And I know for
20 everything that happens, someone is in charge.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There is always a senior.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was number one in charge of this watch?
25 A. Alain.
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1 Q. Alain Kartuzinski?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. So regardless of what happened, I mean, you can
4 say that if Lisa got crazy or needed something, you went
5 to a security guard to get some help, this is just a for
6 instance, I'm not talking about any one instance.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. But ultimately that security guard or anybody
9 else would have to get an okay for Alain Kartuzinski?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yes?
12 A. It wasn't like they had to, you know, say,
13 "Listen, she's going crazy, I need some help," and they
14 would call up to Alain and say, "Alain, can I do this."
15 They were there with the purpose of helping if needed.
16 Q. Yes, I understand. But they couldn't make any
17 major changes?
18 A. No.
19 Q. They couldn't move her or doing anything without
20 Alain's permission?
21 A. No, from my understanding, no.
22 Q. What if someone wanted to take her to a
23 hospital?
24 A. Well, Mmm, I guess it would depend upon the
25 person's knowledge of the situation and of her physical
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1 situation and, you know, of their relationship.
2 Like if somebody went in there and said, you
3 know, like somebody who were a doctor and said, "Listen,
4 she's going to die if she doesn't get to a doctor right
5 now," and then just said, "Okay, we are going to --"
6 didn't take her to the doctor, it could happen, you know.
7 But it wouldn't be just like nobody. Do you understand
8 what I'm saying?
9 Q. Yes, I know what you are saying.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. She passed away that evening. And we have got
12 an idea what time that was.
13 What would you have done if it was on your watch
14 that day? How would you have handled that?
15 A. If I was there and somebody came in?
16 Q. If she would have stopped breathing and died
17 while you were there?
18 A. I can't say. I have thought of that. I don't
19 know.
20 Q. Are there ever times when ambulances are called
21 to that building? I have never seen that happen.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Really?
24 A. Two or three months ago an ambulance was called
25 there, there was a lady that had a heart attack.
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1 Q. So it would have been possible on the 5th to
2 call an ambulance and take her to the hospital?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did anybody -- did anybody mention getting her
5 medical attention?
6 A. No. And from my viewpoint at that time, that
7 wasn't what I thought. I mean, I wasn't thinking, no, we
8 shouldn't have it, but I wasn't looking at it as maybe we
9 should get medical attention now. That wasn't like what I
10 thought.
11 My viewpoint was more, Mmm, we need to change
12 what we are doing because it is not working, right? It
13 could have been medically. It could have been get her
14 into a different space, different surroundings where she
15 can walk around, get physical exercise, you know. A
16 person needs a purpose to live, right? That is more
17 theoretical, so, whatever.
18 Q. We know from talking to Barcenas, for one --
19 A. Alphonso Barcenas.
20 Q. Alphonso Barcenas, Sr., for one, around the 28th
21 of November the guards' duties were cut back, the 28th,
22 29th of December (sic) --
23 MR. LAURO: November.
24 BY AGENT STROPE:
25 Q. -- November, their duties were cut back because,
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1 in his words, she no longer was violent and she had calmed
2 down some.
3 And we also have reason to believe that that was
4 about the time maybe she was getting weaker and she wasn't
5 as violent.
6 Did you see that?
7 A. I didn't notice it exactly that day. I couldn't
8 say what day it was, but I did know she was less violent.
9 And there is one time later where she kicked me
10 or stuff like that and it kept on, but she wasn't like --
11 I wasn't concerned that she was going to start to try to
12 beat me up or something like that at that time.
13 Q. I guess what I'm asking is did you see, over
14 that period of time, a declination of her health?
15 A. Yeah, I did.
16 Q. Did you?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Okay. you observed that over that last week
19 that you were there?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. And of course it culminated on the 5th, that was
22 the worst day?
23 A. Right. And I would say it sped up two or three
24 days before that, like I told him.
25 Q. Describe her medical -- not medical, her
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1 physical condition on the 4th, the day before she -- your
2 last day. Can you do that?
3 A. Best I can.
4 Q. Yes, I understand that. I understand that.
5 A. Okay. Well, she is moving around on the bed.
6 She was crawling around some on the floor but --
7 Q. She's too weak to stand, is that right?
8 A. Yes. Sometimes on her hands, sometimes on her
9 elbows. And that was her general state.
10 She was talking, not as loudly, talking more
11 like the voice we're talking now, rather than yelling.
12 And sometimes --
13 Q. Was she -- what was she saying?
14 A. She said a number of things. I mean, alphabet
15 soup, "I'm having a bad hair day," "Fuck Bennetta."
16 Q. Did she ever say "I'm sick, I don't feel good"?
17 A. Never.
18 Q. Never said "I'm sick"?
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Okay. Go on. Go ahead.
21 A. Well, yeah, she was crawling around. She was
22 talking or mumbling. That was her general state. She was
23 going to the bathroom in the bed. You know, we had to
24 change the sheets. We gave her, you know, a wash in the
25 bed. That was her state.
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1 Q. Okay. Did she eat or drink anything that day?
2 A. I believe we spoon-fed her some water or orange
3 juice or liquid of some sort.
4 Q. There was testimony she would just spit up
5 everything.
6 A. Yeah, that is right. I mean, some got down,
7 but...
8 Q. What is that?
9 A. Maybe some got down but that would have been
10 just like luck.
11 Q. Did either Dr. Johnson or Houghton show up on
12 December 4th when you were there?
13 A. I don't remember that they did. They might
14 have. I don't remember.
15 Q. What shift were you, the day shift, or the night
16 shift?
17 A. Well, there is kind of two that were half days,
18 and I was the day, I was from nine to midnight.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Then the other was like halfway between that.
21 Q. Now, on that night of the 4th to the 5th, that
22 would have been her last night alive, right?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Did she sleep that night? Was she -- what was
25 her demeanor that night?
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1 A. I wasn't there. I mean, I left at midnight.
2 Q. Okay, up until midnight, I'm sorry.
3 A. She seemed like she was sleeping, but then she
4 would move around and talk.
5 Q. What was her breathing like?
6 A. Mmm, I couldn't honestly say exactly. She was
7 breathing, but I don't know --
8 Q. Do you know the definition of labored breathing?
9 A. Well, you have to work at it.
10 Q. Kind of deep. Did you ever hear that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You said that you witnessed Dr. Johnson giving
13 her a shot?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 THE REPORTER: Your answer?
16 A. Yes. Sorry.
17 Q. What day was that? Was that near the end?
18 A. I don't think so. I couldn't really say. I
19 don't know exactly.
20 Q. Did somebody request that shot? Was that your
21 shift, your duty, your watch?
22 A. I was on, yes.
23 Q. Who was on with you?
24 A. I think it was either Rita or Susan.
25 Q. Susan Green?
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1 A. No, not Susan, that Mexican --
2 MR. McGARRY: DelaVega?
3 MR. LAURO: Arrunada.
4 A. Probably Laura that was there. I can't
5 specifically say.
6 MR. McGARRY: Or Silvia.
7 BY AGENT STROPE:
8 Q. Did Laura have medical training?
9 A. I believe she did. I think she was a nurse. I
10 think so. I'm not really sure.
11 Q. She's Mexican?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did she check things like vital statistics, you
14 know what I'm talking about?
15 A. No, not that I saw.
16 Q. She didn't check pulse or temperature?
17 Did anybody ever check temperature, pulse?
18 That is what you do with sick people, right?
19 A. Yes, that is what you do with sick people.
20 She broke a thermometer once when I wasn't
21 there. And I believe after that they didn't want to have
22 one there or something.
23 Q. Lisa broke one?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. What, bit on it or something?
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1 A. I don't know exactly. I just remember when I
2 came I was told the thermometer was broke and she broke
3 it.
4 Q. Whose thermometer was it, do you know?
5 A. Whose? I don't know.
6 Q. The shot, did Janice tell you what it was for?
7 A. To make her sleep.
8 Q. Did she say what it was?
9 A. I don't remember the name. She might have. I
10 don't know.
11 Q. You don't remember what color it was? That is
12 an awful tall order, I know, but --
13 A. I mean, maybe it was brown. It wasn't pink.
14 MR. LAURO: Don't guess. Seriously,
15 whatever you can remember.
16 BY AGENT STROPE:
17 Q. Did she say what it was for?
18 A. To help her to sleep.
19 Q. Did she say where she got it from?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did she ever mention Dr. Minkoff during this
22 time?
23 A. I don't recall that she did.
24 Q. Did you ever see Dr. Houghton give her a shot?
25 A. Mmm, as I said earlier, the mouth syringe, but
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1 not a shot shot.
2 Q. That was food more than medicine?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Or was it a mixture of both?
5 A. It might have been food. I couldn't say. But
6 it was to get her to -- to sedate her because she was
7 violent at the time.
8 Q. Okay. You also said that one time Alain
9 Kartuzinski showed up?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you have a conversation with him?
12 A. Yes, very brief.
13 Q. What was that about?
14 A. He -- it was outside. I went outside of the
15 area and I went down the hall.
16 And he asked how she was doing. And I said it
17 was the same as she has been.
18 I think it was -- it was pretty -- let's see, it
19 was pretty early in this whole cycle and is when she was
20 violent. And he asked how she was doing. I said, "The
21 same as before." And that was pretty much the comm.-
22 cycle.
23 Q. What was his reaction to reports that, from what
24 you are saying, that -- you know, the contents of those
25 reports were pretty blunt, in other words, we need to do
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1 something for this girl.
2 A. Uh-huh?
3 Q. What was his reaction to that?
4 A. I didn't get an answer. I mean --
5 Q. Never got an answer?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So nobody critiqued those reports and got back
8 with you and talked to you about those reports?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Are you normally that blunt? You normally --
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- say what is on your mind?
13 A. Yeah. What do you think?
14 Q. Well, I find it refreshing because that is the
15 way I am. If you have something to say, say it if it is
16 the truth.
17 I wanted to touch on the bath that you gave Lisa
18 on the 5th.
19 A. Uh-huh?
20 Q. We have testimony that Lisa certainly could not
21 help or assist with the bath.
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. And that she was -- her eyes were fixed and she
24 was breathing heavily or sporadically.
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. Do you dispute that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. So basically she was laying, and she
4 couldn't be of assistance, and she was laying back, eyes
5 fixed on the ceiling, breathing heavily or sporadically?
6 A. I don't know if her eyes were fixed on the
7 ceiling, might have been, but that gels.
8 Q. We also had testimony, I don't know if you are
9 familiar with this term or somebody mentioned it to you
10 during this, but we had testimony during this day while
11 she was in the bathtub her sphincter muscle was fixed.
12 Do you know what that means?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Dilated.
15 A. What is sphincter muscle?
16 Q. Anal muscle that relaxes when people are close
17 to death.
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. That is a medical term. I didn't expect you to
20 understand. We got it from a medical person, so...
21 So after the bath, what happened then?
22 A. Mmm, I believe we put clothes on her and put her
23 back in the bed, which we had changed.
24 Q. Where did those clothes come from?
25 A. When I came she had -- there was a suitcase of
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1 clothes there which were her clothes. I -- I mean, I
2 don't know, I could only say what I think how they got
3 there. I don't know.
4 Q. Yes?
5 A. But as far as -- they were her clothes, they fit
6 her, and she seemed --
7 Q. We know that two ladies from the organization
8 went to her house and got clothes. Do you know who they
9 were?
10 A. No. I didn't know that.
11 Q. I know normally I guess I would ask who was in
12 charge of her mental well-being and who is in charge of
13 her physical, but in this case there is no such thing as
14 anyone who is charged with her mental condition because
15 they don't believe in psychiatry, obviously.
16 A. Well, no, I mean, her mental condition is how
17 she is doing, right. So to speak, that would be Alain, if
18 you were to name somebody.
19 Q. So he was her counselor?
20 A. Mmm, he was. He would direct any counseling
21 that would be done.
22 Q. Was he her auditor?
23 A. I think at some point previously he was her
24 auditor, because she kept on mentioning him, like just in
25 her talking.
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1 Q. So if everything had gone --
2 A. The way it should have gone.
3 Q. -- the way it should have gone and we didn't
4 have the unfortunate result and Lisa had gone on to her
5 session, he would have been okay, right?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. He would have made good decisions?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It would have been a good decision, if you are
10 doing Monday morning quarterbacking?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. But it didn't?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Who was in charge of her medical, the medical
15 half of her problem, not physical, but the medical half?
16 Who called the shots in the medical half?
17 A. Well, Mmm, let me just say this. I don't know.
18 I couldn't say.
19 Q. Yes?
20 A. But whoever it would be, it would be in
21 coordination, with Alain, and probably, I could only say
22 probably, Janice.
23 Q. But even she couldn't do anything without Alain?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. He was the boss?
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. He could walk in there and say get her to a
3 hospital and it would be done?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Or he could say don't take her to the hospital
6 and it wouldn't be done, right?
7 A. Yeah. I mean, unless Janice had the conviction
8 and just surpassed that, it would have gone to a higher
9 terminal.
10 Q. That is a good point.
11 A. Any one person can make anything happen if they
12 really feel that it has to happen, you know what I mean?
13 Q. If you make enough noise, is that what you are
14 saying?
15 A. I mean from my viewpoint, I go, okay, how could
16 I have handled it?
17 Q. Do you feel you made enough noise?
18 A. Well, I didn't because she's dead. That is the
19 fact.
20 Q. That is the first time I have heard that, too.
21 It seems to me that if some one individual would have made
22 enough noise, she would be alive today.
23 A. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that is the fact. If I had
24 gone, you know, if I had gone to higher terminals, if I
25 wasn't getting enough help from him, if I would have
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1 walked to the senior-most terminal there and said,
2 "Listen," you know, it could have handled it somehow.
3 Q. Well, I have seen the pictures of what she
4 looked like when she showed up at the hospital, and it is
5 hard for me to believe that we have people come here and
6 tell us she was walking and talking on the day she died.
7 That is not going to happen.
8 MR. LAURO: Well, wait a minute, wait.
9 BY AGENT STROPE:
10 Q. I'm asking you --
11 MR. LAURO: If you want to ask her specific
12 questions, but to relate what other people may have said,
13 or your comments on other people's testimony --
14 AGENT STROPE: That is testimony.
15 MR. LAURO: -- that is not really fair.
16 AGENT STROPE: Okay.
17 MR. LAURO: Just ask her what she saw.
18 AGENT STROPE: Just questioning. I'm not
19 trying to trip her up. She is very cooperative.
20 BY AGENT STROPE:
21 Q. But do you understand what I'm saying?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. LAURO: Wait, time out. Let him ask a
24 specific question and then you answer a specific question.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
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1 BY AGENT STROPE:
2 Q. Do you know what I'm saying?
3 A. I understand.
4 Q. Okay. That is all I was trying to do.
5 A. Okay, so what is the question?
6 Q. I wasn't trying to trip you up.
7 When was the last time during this watch that
8 you saw Paul Kellerhous?
9 A. I couldn't say. I saw him when she was going to
10 the hospital, I saw him directly after that, so I couldn't
11 say before that, I don't remember.
12 Q. Were you there when they took her to the
13 hospital?
14 A. No. Right when I returned from dinner I went to
15 the room, she was gone, everything was gone. I'm like,
16 "What?" You know.
17 Q. Was the room cleaned up there already?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Oh.
20 A. So --
21 Q. Describe that room to me.
22 A. The room?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. It had terracotta -- I think terracotta --
25 Q. I mean like, I'm sorry, I don't want to
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1 interrupt you, but after she had gone to the hospital.
2 A. Well, I mean, not what the room liked like,
3 right?
4 Okay, the bed wasn't made. There was another
5 bed which was kind of -- it was against the wall, the
6 right wall. And there was a bed against the left wall,
7 was in the corner, and that is where she had been before.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. And there was a light. There was -- you know,
10 there was a light, but it was missing the outside piece
11 because it had been broken before.
12 I think there had been some vitamin bottles that
13 were in drawers or something like that, or maybe we
14 didn't, you know.
15 I had two books there. You know, stuff like
16 that.
17 Q. Were her possessions still there?
18 A. Mmm, probably, but -- yeah, I'm pretty sure they
19 were there. I think we took her suitcase out once she got
20 violent, like the suitcase itself, but left the clothes
21 there.
22 Q. When you went back to the room, who was there?
23 A. There was no one there. I knocked. I mean,
24 that is why I got kind of surprised. The security guard
25 was there. There was no one there.
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1 I think it was like right after she left,
2 because right after that I went straight to security, to
3 see P.K. or somebody, and say what happened, right?
4 And when I went there I saw a van which I know
5 is Janice's drive out. And, I mean, I thought something
6 is happening with her and that she's there. Nobody told
7 me this.
8 Q. So you saw Janice's van leave?
9 A. Uh-huh, yeah.
10 Q. Did you see who was in the van?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Where was it parked at?
13 A. It wasn't parked. We have like a spiral, Mmm,
14 way --
15 Q. Parking garage?
16 A. Exactly. We have the four floors, and there is
17 a spiral thing. They came down the spiral, came down the
18 spiral and out.
19 Q. Was this when you were leaving your watch? Or
20 was it when you were coming back?
21 A. When I come back. I had gone to dinner. I came
22 back and I went directly to the room. And, you know, no
23 one was there.
24 And so I went straight to security. And when I
25 arrived at security I saw the van coming out -- or out of
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1 the spiral from that area.
2 Q. Are you familiar with Bennetta Slaughter?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Was she there during the watch, did she come and
5 see how Lisa was doing?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did she call to see how Lisa was doing?
8 A. I don't know, we didn't have a phone.
9 Q. No phones in the room?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Bennetta was her senior or her supervisor?
12 A. Yeah, well, regarding to this, I knew Bennetta
13 was connected to her because of what Lisa said, right?
14 And also --
15 Q. What did she say about her?
16 A. Mmm, she said, "Fuck Bennetta." She said, I
17 mean, just like obscene things like that.
18 And since I knew Bennetta before, as I said, as
19 I was approaching her and I was arranging her sessions
20 about a year before, I knew her personally that way.
21 Q. Is Bennetta on staff?
22 A. No.
23 Q. She was obviously upset with Bennetta about
24 something?
25 A. Well, I mean, yeah. But she was -- you know,
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1 she was saying "Fuck you" to me, then there were other
2 times she was saying I fucked her, you know.
3 Q. Again I have to refer to the pictures that I saw
4 of Lisa when she was at the hospital in New Port Richey.
5 And I saw a lot of marks on her body that you must have
6 seen.
7 You saw her the last day she was alive so I'm
8 going to ask you in particular about her hands. Tell me
9 about what marks you observed on her hands.
10 A. I know she had a bruise on her hands, and I know
11 that her wrists were kind of probably slightly red because
12 -- and the reason I would say that is because, you know,
13 when -- I know maybe, maybe not, but from -- from
14 November, Mmm, like when I came in when she was violent,
15 we were holding her by her wrists, so they might still
16 have been red from that and might have been bruised from
17 that.
18 She had fallen down several times. I mean, I
19 don't remember exactly, I don't have like a picture of her
20 hands.
21 Q. If you don't remember, that is fine. Just say
22 you don't remember. That is fine.
23 A. Okay. I don't.
24 Q. What about her legs, her feet?
25 A. I noticed bruises there. I mean, her feet, not
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1 particularly. But on her legs, Mmm, I noticed bruises on
2 her legs.
3 Q. Okay. And what is really obvious, I mean, if
4 you saw that her eyes were fixed, you looked at her face
5 when she was in the bathtub, what was really obvious to
6 me, she had two scratches on her nose, fairly deep
7 abrasions.
8 Did you notice those?
9 A. I could say I recall them, yeah.
10 Q. How did she get those?
11 A. I don't know. I don't know. I could only give
12 you suppositions of how she could have gotten them. With
13 her hands she was going all over. So, I mean, she was,
14 you know, sometimes -- I mean, maybe to a point where she
15 hurt herself. It is possible she did that.
16 Q. How long did she have that?
17 A. The scratch?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. She also had, again on her face, I believe on
21 the left side of her jaw, she had a cut right here
22 (indicating).
23 A. Yeah?
24 Q. Do you know what that was from?
25 A. No. But it could have been from her falling
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1 down.
2 MR. LAURO: First of all, did you see it?
3 THE WITNESS: I saw her falling down twice.
4 MR. LAURO: Did you see a cut on the left
5 side of her face?
6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember a cut on the
7 left side of her face.
8 BY AGENT STROPE:
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. That could have been.
11 Q. Well, that is fine if you don't remember.
12 Did you ever have a walkie-talkie, a hand-held
13 radio, when you were in there, inside the room, to call
14 security people?
15 A. I remember having one.
16 Q. You do?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. What was the purpose of that?
19 A. Well, I guess if we needed help. If we needed
20 their help and couldn't go outside the door to get their
21 help, you know, if we had to handle her in the room and,
22 you know, wouldn't want to leave her alone in the room,
23 one, if I was alone. I wouldn't be able to send somebody
24 out -- out there and leave me be in there to handle her.
25 Q. In psychiatric hospitals they use belts to
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1 subdue a person when they are like that. Did you ever do
2 that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Instead, you held --
5 A. Yeah, well, generally -- she didn't get violent
6 with me much, you know. And generally when she did get
7 violent with me, I would take her hands, I would put them
8 down and I would sit her down in the bed, you know. And
9 it got to where she wouldn't do that and -- she just
10 wouldn't do that with me.
11 And so, you know -- I mean, there was one time
12 she kicked me and it wasn't even very hard, and it was
13 like, well, okay, she's not in her right mind, I know
14 she's not vicious at me.
15 Q. Do you know of any time during that seventeen or
16 eighteen days that Lisa was at the Ft. Harrison when she
17 left the room?
18 A. No, I don't know of any time.
19 Q. Chlorhydrate, have you heard about that while
20 you were there, do you know what chlorhydrate is?
21 A. I couldn't say I do, no.
22 Q. You hadn't heard of it?
23 A. No, I think he mentioned something similar to
24 that (indicating Mr. McGarry).
25 Q. It comes in kind of a gelcap. Do you know what
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1 that is?
2 A. Well, I know what a gelcap is.
3 Q. Do you remember those being there?
4 A. No. I remember there being -- there were some
5 herbal things, but I don't know, you know.
6 Q. Have you participated in any of these watches
7 since then?
8 A. Mmm, we had one time, not a watch like this of
9 this matter, we had a lady who was not, you know, doing
10 well herself and she was going back to her home and so she
11 was staying at a house outside of the church premises.
12 And I was staying with her with someone else, and we had
13 somebody who was flying with her, taking her back home to
14 Germany the next day, I think Germany, I don't know. But
15 that was the only thing.
16 Q. This cabana is like a motel, right, hotel?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And there are rooms above and to the left and to
19 the right?
20 A. Yup.
21 Q. Were there any times when people who were
22 staying in these rooms came forward and wanted to know
23 what the noise was when she was banging on the walls?
24 Weren't you worried about that?
25 A. I believe directly to the right was a maid
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1 station.
2 Q. Housekeeping?
3 A. Yeah, for that side.
4 Then the wall that she was banging on was right
5 next to the bathroom, so it was the bathroom was right on
6 the other side?
7 I don't know if they did. They could have.
8 Q. Nobody ever called the police?
9 A. Not to my knowledge.
10 Q. I just want to touch on Dr. Johnson one more
11 time. Did you ever see Dr. Johnson give her an
12 examination?
13 A. Mmm, I don't think so. I have seen her -- I saw
14 her look her over when she gave her the shot.
15 Q. What do you mean, look her over?
16 A. Well, she looked at her. And I don't remember
17 exactly what she did. Maybe she did some sort of --
18 checked her pulse or something. I don't remember.
19 Q. Did she walk in with a bag, or just one syringe?
20 Or how did that happen?
21 A. I don't know.
22 AGENT STROPE: Okay, I kind of hate to
23 miss anything but I'll quit.
24
25
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1 CONTINUED EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. Just one more question that might get some
4 response from your attorney here. I'm not going to ask
5 you what was said to other lawyers. But what other
6 lawyers have you talked to in this case?
7 A. Him. And, well, there is the lawyer of the
8 church.
9 Q. Oh, who is that? Oh, is that Fugate or
10 Weinberg?
11 MR. LAURO: I think it was Laura Vaughn.
12 MR. McGARRY: All right.
13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION
14 BY AGENT STROPE:
15 Q. Are you familiar with a subject named Lynn
16 Farney?
17 A. I think I know who he is.
18 Q. He worked ASO out of Los Angeles. Do you know
19 him?
20 A. Yeah. He was here
21 Q. I know he was here. Have you talked to him
22 about this case?
23 A. I have talked to him about it, yeah.
24 Q. Have you talked to him about your testimony here
25 today?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Did --
3 A. I didn't know I would have testimony here today.
4 Q. Did he ever advise you what to say to the
5 police?
6 A. He told me to say the truth.
7 AGENT STROPE: Okay.
8 MR. McGARRY: All right, thank you very
9 much.
10 ___________________________________________
11 WHEREUPON, THE STATEMENT WAS CONCLUDED
12 _______________________________________________
13
14
15
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1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2 STATE OF FLORIDA )
3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4 I, the undersigned authority, certify that
HEATHER PETZOLD personally appeared before me and was duly
5 sworn.
6 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10th day
of April, 1997.
7
8
(signature)
9 LYNNE J. IDE, RPR, RMR
Notary Public - State of Florida.
10
LYNNE J. IDE
11 COMMISSION # CC 467604
EXPIRES JUN 14, 1999
BONDED THRU
12 ATLANTIC BONDING CO., INC.
REPORTER' S CERTIFICATE
13
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
15
I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Professional
16 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the statement of HEATHER PETZOLD;
17 and that the transcript is a true and complete record of
my stenographic notes.
18
I further certify that I am not a relative,
19 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
20 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
21
DATED this 10th day of April, 1997.
22
23 (signature)
LYNNE J. IDE,
24 RPR, RMR.
25
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