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156 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 3 IN RE: 4 5 INVESTIGATION 5 ______________________________/ 7 8 9 10 CONTINUED STATEMENT OF: GLEN EDWARD STEILO 11 DATE: July 24, 1997 12 TIME: Began: 2:15 p.m. 13 Ended: 5:15 p.m. 14 PLACE: Criminal Justice Center Office of the State Attorney 15 Room 1000 Clearwater, Florida 16 REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR 17 Registered Merit Reporter Notary Public 18 State of Florida at Large 19 20 21 22 23 24 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500 25 ST. PETERSBURG/ CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
157 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE DOUGLAS. CROW, ESQUIRE 3 Office of the State Attorney Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000 4 Clearwater, Florida 33760 Attorney for State of Florida 5 LAURA VAUGHAN, ESQUIRE 6 Zuckerman.- Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP SunTrust Financial Centre, Suite 2525 7 401 East Jackson Street Tampa, Florida 33602 8 -and- DELMAR LEE FUGATE, ESQUIRE 9 Icot Center, Suite 108 13630 58th Street North 10 Clearwater, Florida 33760 Attorney for the Witness 11 ALSO PRESENT: 12 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant 13 City. of Clearwater Police Department 14 15 16 17 18 19 I N D E X PAGE 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. CROW 158 BY MR. McGARRY 238 22 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 244 23 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 258 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
158 1 The deponent herein, 2 GLEN EDWARD STEILO, 3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the 4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was 5 examined and testified as follows: 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. CROW: 8 Q. This is a continuation of a State Attorney 9 Investigation we began last Thursday, was it? 10 MR. McGARRY: Yes. 11 Q. And we needed to go over some issues that we, 12 because of time and fatigue; we didn't fully cover last 13 time. 14 I believe we had pretty much exhausted your 15 knowledge on the search, as you call it, I'm not sure we 16 would necessarily agree with the term, but as you call it, 17 that you did in April of this year for the civil suit and 18 the broad search for documents. 19 What I felt was not completely covered was your 20 involvement, if any, in the initial search for documents. 21 And let me preface that by two things. We issued subpoenas, 22 I think, in February of '97, which were responded to in 23 early March by the attorneys on behalf of the 24 Church of Scientology And we issued -- we resubpoenaed 25 some of the same records with some more specificity, I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
159 1 guess, about two weeks ago now, returnable last Thursday. 2 The search -that you talked about doing occurred in 3 April, in between any response to those subpoenas. But in 4 talking to you, it appeared that there had been a prior 5 search, and I'm not sure if it was on behalf of our 6 subpoenas or on behalf of the Church just trying to find any 7 documents relating to Miss McPherson's death. That occurred 8 in December, and January and February of 1997. 9 And I want to ask you -- try to exhaust your 10 knowledge of that. And I realize there_may be are*s that we 11 may not, agree on as to what's privileged or not privileged, 12 but I'm going to ask the questions anyway. 13 A. Sure. 14 Q. And you can rely on advice of counsel as to what 15 you're going to answer and not answer. 16 MS. VAUGHAN: Keeping with my seat in the 17 room, the facts of anything he did in the search we 18 have no objection to answering, but it might be prior 19 to his technical designation as records custodian. He 20 relied on that information as records custodian, he 21 didn't redo what he did. 22 No problem. Only thing.I would instruct you 23 not to answer, conversations between you and me 24 relating to the case, or otherwise privileged 25 conversations. But relating to your search you may KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
160 1 answer. 2 BY MR. CROW: 3 Q. We'll probably have to take it question by 4 question, because I don't know, necessarily, the source of 5 your information that you base your decision on. We'll have 6 to take it question by question and go through that. 7 What I don't want to happen, if you need to 8 refer -- for something to refer to the lawyers to give an 9 accurate answer, you can't simply truncate your answer. You 10 either have to claim an objection or answer. Do you 11 understand what I'm saying? 12 A. I think so, yes. 13 Q. Let me clarify some terms. I'm not as -- I don't 14 profess to be as knowledgeable in the terminology that the 15 Church employs as some of my colleagues here. 16 You refer to a PC folder, and I believe it was 17 your understanding that the caretakers' records that exist 18 were found in the PC folder relating to Miss McPherson? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What is a PC folder exactly? 21 A. PC means -- that's initials for pre-Clear. In 22 other words, that's a parishioner of the Church who has not 23 yet attested to Clear. 24 Q. Okay. And what would -- what would be normally -- 25 A. Generally. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
161 1 Q. -- generally in a pre-Clear.folder? 2 A. That would be reports from the Minister or the -- 3 the Auditor who counsels the parishioner. That's normally 4 what's in the PC folder. 5 Q. Okay. What else would be in the PC folder? 6 A. Information -- I believe we discussed something 7 called a folder error summary. That would normally be in 8 the PC folder. 9 Q. Folder error summary. And that would be if there 10 were mistakes in the file? 11 A. Yeah. Normally, if -- let's just say the CS, the 12 Case Supervisor, is not satisfied with the progress of 13 counseling. He could refer all of the folders to an 14 individual known as an FESer, a folder error summary person. 15 Q. When you say "all of the folders" -- 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. -- all of the folders relating to a number of 18 people or all folders relating to one individual? 19 A. All the folders relating to one individual. 20 Q. Is there more than one pre-Clear folder for a 21 specific person at a specific location? 22 A. I don't know about location, but there definitely 23 is more than one PC folder. 24 Q. You described last week that there might be one in 25 Los Angeles for her time there, there might be one in Texas KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
162 1 for her time there, there might be one here while she was 2 here, but I don't recall you indicating that there would be 3 multiple PC folders for, let's say, Lisa McPherson 4 physically located in Clearwater during the time she was in 5 Clearwater. I don't recall you indicating that. Are you 6 indicating that? 7 A. Well, I actually don't know, but it would make 8 sense that all of her PC folders would be in the location 9 where she's receiving auditing. 10 Q. Okay. Who creates a folder then? When does a 11 folder get created? 12 A. By the Auditor? 13 Q. You tell me. I don't know. Who creates it? 14 That's why I'm asking. 15 A. The Auditor creates it. 16 Q. An Auditor? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Every Auditor? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So every Auditor she goes to creates a new file? 21 A. No. The first file is created by the first 22 Auditor. 23 Q. That would make sense. What about the second 24 file? 25 A. The second file is -- well, I mean, as the person KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
163 1 progresses in their auditing, new folder are created. 2 Q. Right. 3 Why? 4 A. Well, because the files get too big. The average 5 width of a file is about an inch, you see. 6 Q. Let's go back then. 7 When I say PC folder, I'm not necessarily talking 8 about the manila envelope. I mean, I assume that all of 9 those PC folders, if it gets too thick to fit in one manila 10 folder and is continued in the next, that I would assume 11 that they would be kept together as a single folder, even 12 though they're physically distinct entities. 13 A. I see what you're saying. 14 In actual fact, when we say PC folder, we mean 15 just one of those envelopes, you know, with all of the 16 folders, just like a legal size folder like these. 17 Q. And how is it labeled then -- 18 A. Well -- 19 Q. -- Lisa McPherson Folder 1? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Then there is a Folder 2? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you find any indication there was a Folder 2, 24 3, 4, or 5 on Lisa McPherson in Clearwater or just one 25 folder? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
164 1 A. I found no folders in Clearwater. 2 Q. Okay. Well -- 3 A. But -- 4 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand my question. 5 Did you find any indication that there was ever 6 more than one PC folder for Lisa McPherson? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Tell me about that. 11 A. I was told, I believe, there were seven folders. 12 Q. Okay. And who told you that? 13 A. Ken Long. The individual I spoke of in 14 Los Angeles. 15 Q. He said there were seven PC folders in Clearwater? 16 A. Exactly. 17 Q. Okay. Tell me about the folders. 18 A. I'm sorry. In Los Angeles. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I'm sorry. 21 Q. Okay. Let's go back to my question. 22 My question was, did you find any indication -- 23 'cause you talked -about there being folders at different 24 locations that she'd been -- 25 A. Correct. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
165 1 Q. -- and that folder might stay behind when she goes 2 to a new location. 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Let me make sure you understand my question again. 5 I thought I had it clear, and maybe not. 6 When she's in Clearwater -- and she's in 7 Clearwater for how many years now before her death, do you 8 know? 9 A. Not exactly, no. I think it was two. 10 Q. okay. 11 A. Speculating, but ... 12 Q. In that period of time, do you have any idea how 13 many PC folders existed in Clearwater? 14 I mean, she wasn't taking auditing, as far as you 15 know, anyplace other than Clearwater during that two-year 16 stay? 17 A. That's correct, it was just in -- 18 Q. So we assume that there aren't any new folders 19 created relating to that two-year period outside of 20 Clearwater? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Maybe they're moved later, but while she's here, 23 they're in Clearwater? 24 A. That's correct, yes. 25 Q. Did you find any indication in that two-year KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
166 1 period that more than one PC folder existed for 2 Lisa McPherson? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Now, the seven folders Mr. Long told you about, 5 were they from different locations that she had been 6 associated with the Church of Scientology or what were they, 7 or do you know? 8 A. Let me answer your question this way: I actually 9 don't know, but I assume that they're from different 10 locations, because she started her -- started as a 11 Scientologist-in Dallas and some were created there, and 12 then she went to Los Angeles for a brief period and I know 13 some were created there. 14 Q. I don't recall seven locations. 15 A. No. No, sir. No, you're right. Again -- 16 Q. Do you know how many files relate to each 17 location? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Are those files still in existence or have they 20 been modified and they no longer exist? 21 A. I don't know the specific answer to that question, 22 no. 23 Q. Who.does? 24 A. Perhaps Mr. Long. ` 25 Q. Have you ever looked at her PC folder? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
167 1 A. No. No. 2 Q. Have you looked at any one of the seven folders? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Who looked at the PC folders for you, 5 specifically? 6 A. Specifically, it was a person by ithe name of 7 Carol Oaks. 8 Q. And that was in April? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. So you've never viewed the folder 11 yourself -- 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. -- or folders? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. You don't know which of the seven folders relate 16 to what time frames? 17 A: No, do not, sir. 18 Q. And you don't know which one of the folders 19 relates to Clearwater' and which ones relate to the other 20 locations? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. And although you don't know specifically more than 23 one folder existed in Clearwater, you can't negate that, or 24 has someone told you there's only one file for Clearwater? 25 A. Nobody's told me. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
168 1 Q. And you haven't asked anybody in your extensive 2 search? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. 5 MS. VAUGHAN: Doug, one point, the sarcasm of 6 "extensive search" is nit necessary. Because of his 7 level, he is not able to look in the folders. 8 MR. CROW: I think I already found that out 9 last week when you weren't here. 10 MS. VAUGHAN: I just wanted to make sure you 11 know it wasn't a lack of diligence. 12 MR. CROW: You have to understand, we find it 13 unbelievable that the Church would assign someone who's 14 unable to look at records that he's supposed to be 15 searching for. So obviously there are disagreements as 16 to why and how and when things were done. I don't 17 think we're going to resolve those today. But I don't 18 want you to think that we were satisfied with the 19 explanations we got either. I understand there are 20 explanations, I think we explored them pretty fully 21 last week, but I do have some follow-up questions on 22 that and was -- was working toward that. 23 Would you read back my last question. 24 (The following portion of the record was 25 read: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
169 1 "QUESTION: And although you don't know 2 specifically more than one folder existed in 3 Clearwater, you can't negate that, or has someone told 4 you there's only one file for Clearwater? 5 "ANSWER: Nobody's told me. 6 "QUESTION: And you haven't asked anybody in 7 your extensive search? 8 "ANSWER: No. 9 "QUESTION: Okay. 10 BY MR. CROW: 11 Q. Okay. As Miss Vaughan has pointed out, you are 12 unable to look at PC folders? 13 A. Those specific folders because of her case state. 14 In other words, she progressed in her auditing to a point, 15 actually, far above mine. And per our Scriptures, I can't 16 look at the folders. 17 Q. And how do you designate that level? Is there a 18 term, I assume? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. There is a term that designates her level versus 21 another person's level? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And your level is what? 24 A. Grade IV. 25 Q. Okay. So you cannot examine a PC folder of anyone KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
170 1 Grade IV and above or above Grade IV? 2 A. Above Grade IV. 3 Q. So you can look at all Grade IVs and below? 4 A. Exactly. 5 Q. Since you couldn't look at Miss McPherson's, did 6 you look at the PC folders of all the other people whose 7 records we subpoenaed? 8 A. No, sir. No. 9 Q. Okay. Are they all above Grade IVs? 10 A. I don't know, actually. 11 Q. Did you even check? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Why is that? 14 A. Because, well, we're talking about Lisa McPherson 15 and her records. 16 Q. Well, we're talking about the caretakers' records 17 that they wrote concerning Lisa McPherson, so the records 18 relate to both individuals. 19 A. Yes -- well, no, not actually. The caretakers 20 were writing reports about Lisa, and they wouldn't go in 21 their PC folders in any way. 22 Q. Okay. And you're certain of that? 23 A. Absolutely. 24 Q. Okay. When I asked you to describe the contents 25 of the PC folder you referred to auditing and auditing KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
171 1 records. And obviously these caretakers weren't qualified 2 or trained in auditing, they did no auditing and performed 3 no services of any kind for that. So why would that go to a 4 PC folder then? 5 A. Good question. 6 Q. You don't have an answer? . 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I really don't know. 10 Q. Can I assume that if you don't know why they got 11 in Lisa McPherson's PC folder, you can't negate -- and 12 there's no apparent reason that you know for them to go in 13 the PC folder, then you also can't tell me with any real 14 certainty why they couldn't be in another person's PC folder 15 either, can you? 16 A. Well, I could. I mean, some of the reports I saw 17 were addressed to the CS. And they were from individuals to 18 the CS. And usually a report that's addressed to a CS, 19 again, I'm just assuming you see, that they go into a PC 20 folder -- 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. -- generally. In other words, when you write a 23 report to a CS about a person, but that's not necessarily -- 24 Q. You didn't mention that to me when I asked you 25 about the contents of the pre-Clear folder. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
172 1 Are there any Church documents that indicate 2 anything written about a person goes to the PC folder? 3 I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as you, but I 4 don't recall anything to suggest that. It seems odd to us 5 the caretaker notes were in the PC folder. When I asked you 6 for an explanation and you had none, that seemed to confirm 7 my conclusion that they didn't necessarily belong there. 8 A. I -- I wasn't there at the time. And I'm not 9 trying to side-step your question, but -- 10 Q. Wasn't where at the time? 11 A. There, you know. 12 Q. Where is "there"? 13 A. December, November, 1995. 14 Q. Talking about Clearwater? 15 A. Yes, in that vicinity. 16 Q. They weren't found there, they were found in 17 Los Angeles, weren't they? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know anybody -- 20 A. But the folders would have been here in Clearwater 21 at the time. she was here. 22 MS. VAUGHAN: May I just ask, what is the 23 question? Is there a question? 24 Q. He was answering, so I think he understands. 25 Do you want the question read back? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
173 1 A. I don't think so. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. It was pretty clear, it seemed to me -- well, it 4 is getting a bit confusing. But you want to know why those 5 reports are there. You're trying to find out why they're 6 there. 7 Q. Well, I think I asked you that and you told me you 8 had no idea. 9 A. I really don't know. 10 Q. And my question is, since as far as your knowledge 11 goes there was no reason for them to be in the PC folder, it 12 strikes me as odd that you can eliminate the possible 13 misfiling in other PC folders or other folders belonging to 14 the people who wrote the records. 15 A. Oh, I see what you're saying. 16 It wouldn't -- it's -- no, it wouldn't be in those 17 folders. It was -- I mean -- 18 Q. Well, it shouldn't have been in the PC folder 19 either, as far as you know? 20 A. Well, no, it's about her. If it would be in any 21 folder, written -- a report written to a CS about 22 Lisa McPherson, it would be in her folder. 23 Q. Well, suppose one of those caretaker's records 24 complained about Joyce Johnson's treatment, could that be in 25 Joyce Johnson's PC folder? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
174 1 A. Well, it -- it would depend. If the report itself 2 said "re Lisa McPherson," then it would be in 3 Lisa McPherson's folder. 4 Q. So without knowing exactly how the reports were 5 styled, you really don't know how they might be routed in 6 the Church? 7 A. Exactly. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. In other words. 10 Q. And you've never seen the missing documents, 11 obviously? 12 A. No, sir. No. 13 Q. Okay. If I recall correctly, most of the people 14 in the list you never talked to to determine the contents of 15 the documents? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. Following that line, you've said PC stands 18 for pre-Clear and that contains the auditing? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. My understanding is Miss McPherson was no longer a 21 pre-Clear? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Okay. Is there a file kept on Clears? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
175 1 A. It's actually the PC folder. 2 Q. Okay. Still called the pre-Clear folder? 3 A. Yeah. You -- when you -- within the Church, you 4 would probably call it a pre-OT folder. 5 Q. Okay. And have you searched for all the pre-OT 6 folders or have you ever seen a pre-OT folder? 7 A. I've seen them a lot, but I can't look into them. 8 Q. Did Mr. Long tell you there were any pre-OT 9 folders belonging to Lisa McPherson? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. I don't recall hearing about those before. Tell 12 me-about them. 13 A. They are the same folders, actually, that-you-and 14 I have been talking about, at least as far as I'm concerned. 15 The general term for these folders is PC folders even though 16 the person may be an OT or a pre-OT. 17 In other words, if I was talking with Laura or 18 yourself or anyone else about a person's auditing folders, 19 I'd just call them PC folders. But if I went into the 20 Hubbard Guidance Center and I told the Folder Page I need 21 all of Lisa's pre-OT folders, I'd be very specific with that 22 individual. Do you know what I mean? 23 Q. No, I'm not sure I do. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. But are you saying-that -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
176 1 A. It's a -- in other words, PC folder is a generic 2 term for all the folders. 3 Q. Okay. Well, how many -- how many -- using the 4 specific language, and not generalizing, how many PC folders 5 were there for Lisa McPherson, how many OT folders, how many 6 pre-OT folders? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. You have no idea? 9 A. No, sir. 10 MS. VAUGHAN: Well, as a clarification, the 11 seven folders that you mentioned are the pre-Clear and 12 pre-OT folders, right? 13 THE WITNESS: Correct. 14 Q. How do you know that? 15 A. Because when I spoke with Mr. Long, Ken Long, he 16 said that Carol was the only one he had of the particular 17 level that Lisa was auditing on. 18 MS. VAUGHAN: Carol Oaks? 19 THE WITNESS: Carol Oaks. 20 A. And I -- we discussed that particular level; that 21 is, what we call the L's Rundown. I don't actually know 22 what L stands for, but it is a rundown that you give between 23 the person becoming Clear and doing their OTs. Actually, 24 it's any time above. 25 Q. OT stands for what? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
177 1 A. Operating Theatine. 2 Q. And what does that mean? 3 A. That's -- let's see. That means the individual 4 can operate as a spirit. 5 Q. And explain that to me. 6 A. With difficulty. 7 Q. Go ahead. Well, you -- you've been with this 8 Church since 1981, so,I mean ... 9 A. An OT is an individual who is at cause over 10 themselves in spiritual matters. 11 Q. I don't understand your syntax here. You're going 12 to have to try a little bit harder. 13 A. I'm trying. I'm not an OT myself -- 14 Q. I'll be patient with you. 15 A. -- so I don't have any personal experience. 16 But an individual who probably understands more of 17 themselves as a spiritual being and can operate -- some 18 individuals have been able to leave their body and still be 19 conscious of themselves as a spiritual being. 20 Q. Okay. Are we saying that the -- an OT has the 21 ability to have an out-of-body experience? Is that -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- one of the things that -- that they supposedly 24 gain by this additional -- 25 A. Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
178 1 Q. -- tier of auditing? 2 A. Exactly. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And with -- with one qualifying statement. And 5 that is, an out-of-body experience with full awareness 6 perceptics. 7 Q. Perceptics? 8 A. Yes. 9 For instance, if an individual leaves their body, 10 they can -- they're aware of where their body is. They can 11 hear somebody else talking, they can feel the air pressure, 12 you know, the temperature, and decide that they don't want 13 to be there, they want to be over there, and move over 14 there. 15 Q. Okay. Their spirit does, but their body stays -- 16 A. Exactly. . 17 Q. -- presumably wherever the body is located? 18 A. Exactly. 19 Q. And what, from your understanding, and I realize 20 it may be an imperfect understanding, what is the body doing 21 at this time? Is it unconscious? Does it have a pulse? Is 22 it -- 23 A. Whatever the person or the spirit wants the body 24 to do. 25 Q. Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
179 1 A. For instance, usually -- oh, gosh, I can't even 2 say usually. 3 Q. Was Lisa an OT? 4 A. To my understanding, she wasn't. 5 Q. Okay. She was a Clear? 6 A. I don't know specifically -- yes, exactly, she 7 just attested to Clear. 8 Q. Okay. And define Clear for me, again, realizing 9 your knowledge may not be as perfect as others in the 10 Church 11 A. Yeah, my -- 12 Q. I'm trying to find out what folders we're talking 13 about here and the differences. 14 A. Uh-huh. I can help you with that one, but let me 15 answer your question first. 16 A Clear is an individual who is at cause over all 17 manner of things in relation to themselves. 18 Q. You use that phrase "at cause." What does that 19 mean in -- in our kind of English instead of in Scientology 20 English? 21 A. It means they would do nothing that could be 22 countersurvival to themselves, in common ordinary language. 23 A Clear would not wander out in the middle of traffic on a 24 bad day, heavy traffic, and put themselves in danger. 25 Q. So a Clear also shouldn't be walking down the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
180 1 street naked after a traffic accident? 2 A. Exactly, yeah. 3 Q. A Clear shouldn't be banging -- putting their head 4 in the toilet? 5 A. Absolutely. 6 Q. So most of the conduct that you're aware of is 7 inconsistent with someone having a status of Clear? 8 A. No, not at all. Not at all. Not in any way, 9 manner, shape or form. 10 Q. Okay. I'm not -- I asked the question inartfully. 11 I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing? 12 A. I'm agreeing with you. . 13 Q. The conduct as reported by the caretakers is 14 inconsistent with a person who reached the status Clear? 15 A. Well, to my understanding? 16 Q. Yes, to your understanding. 17 A. To my understanding, yes. I haven't attested to 18 Clear, so from what I understand, what she was doing was 19 absolutely not consistent with anything related to Clear. 20 Q. Okay. Going -- going back to the folders now that 21 we've got some definitions to work with here, she was Clear, 22 she was not OT. And I wasn't sure if I picked up on 23 Miss Vaughan's terminology. 24 What types of folders -- do you know 25 specifically -- let me start over. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
181 1 A PC folder, what does it say on it? Does it just 2 say Lisa McPherson, does it say Lisa McPherson PC Folder, or 3 have you ever seen one to know what it says? 4 A. I have seen them. 5 Q. And is there consistency in nomenclature 6 throughout the Church? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Your folders, up to the point where persons attest 10 Clear, are usually -- they're rather plain, they have black 11 letters on them, and they -- they have a confidentiality 12 statement on them, the person's name. But on the folder 13 where the person attests to Clear, there's a green stripe on 14 the folder. In other words, the folders are color coded. 15 And one of the most common, of course, is when a person 16 attests to Clear, his folder is marked with this green 17 stripe. It's usually around the spine in the back, similar 18 to the stripes in location as you see on those,volumes 19 there, in the bottom portion of it. 20 Q. I know you can't look in the folder; but you 21 certainly can look at the outside of the folders and see how 22 many are there. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Have you done this? 25 A. No, sir. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
182 1 Q. Is there any reason you haven't looked into the 2 outside folders to see how many there are and see what 3 individual they relate to? 4 A. Yeah. They're in Los Angeles. I didn't go to 5 Los Angeles. 6 Q. I know the folders were located here before you 7 came here. 8 A. They were, but I've never been in -- in Clearwater. 9 when they were here myself, personally. 10 Q. I know. But you were in Los Angeles when they 11 were in Los Angeles. 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. My understanding is you were somehow involved in 14 the initial search. We haven't gotten to that yet. 15 A. Let me clarify that. 16 Q. Let me ask the question. 17 You've never physically seen the folders -- 18 A No. No, sir. 19 Q. -- relating to Lisa McPherson? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Has anyone told you there's one folder that's a 22 green stripe folder? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Has anyone ever told you that there's one folder 25 that's a pre-OT folder? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
183 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. Where -- in whose physical possession, if 3 you know, are those folders now? I think you just said 4 they're in Los Angeles. So they're not in the hands of 5 attorneys as we speak? 6 A. Well, I actually don't know -- physically know. 7 where they're located in Los Angeles, but I know -- 8 Q. No? Are they in Los Angeles? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Somebody's told you that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who told you that? 13 A. Ken Long and Lynn Farney. 14 Q. Okay. And -- but you don't know, among the seven 15 files generically designated PC folder, you don't know if 16 there's actually a folder with a green stripe? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I would assume so, because she's attested to 20 Clear. 21 Q. Okay. And you don't know which of the seven 22 folders contain some of the caretakers' notes? 23 A. No. But I would assume that it comes from the 24 most -- what do you call it? The one latest. 25 Q. Recent? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
184 1 A. The most recent folder, exactly, because that 2 happened just before her death. 3 Q. Would documents still go to a PC folder after a 4 person's death? 5 A. They -- they could. 6 Q. Do you know? 7 A. I don't know, sir. I could see that happening. 8 Q. You don't know whether these caretakers' records 9 went to the PC folder before or after Lisa McPherson's 10 death, the ones that actually made it there and were found? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. So you can't give me a time frame of when they 13 should have -- well, that's not a fair question. 14 I think you indicated you didn't know why they 15 were in the PC folder to begin with? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. So you can't tell me why they would have gotten 18 there at a specific time, can you? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Okay. And this is an observation, so you don't 21 need to respond to it, but it seems, based upon the -- the 22 length of time we've talked with you, that the Church is 23 very structured and demanding in how its records are kept 24 and designated. In other words, that's pretty much laid out 25 in Church policy, what goes where, what it's named, where KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
185 1 it's located. 2 Would it be accurate to say that -- that missing 3 records would be something of significance to the Church; 4 records that should be in the PC folder that were missing, 5 that were not in the PC folder, would be of concern to the 6 Church? 7 A. Yes, sir, that's true. 8 Q. I believe I recall seeing something in church 9 policy indicating that if there were those types of 10 omissions, that it would result in a Committee of Evidence. 11 To your knowledge, obviously you've searched, to 12 your knowledge has the Church attempted to raise a 13 Committee of Evidence or do any Internal Investigation to 14 discipline anyone for the loss of caretaker records and the 15 other documents that we've subpoenaed and that you've been 16 unable to supply us? 17 MS. VAUGHAN: Just as a preliminary matter, 18 do you have the church policy you're referring to? I 19 don't know if he's familiar with it and I've never seen 20 it. I don't know what you're talking about. 21 MR. CROW: If he's not familiar with it, he 22 can say he's not familiar with it. 23 A. Well, I'm not aware of any -- to answer your 24 question just outright, I'm not aware of any, but I'm not. 25 going to say whether or not Com-Ev should have been called KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
186 1 on missing records: 2 Q. Okay. I thought, and perhaps you know, it's been 3 a week, but I thought when Mr. McGarry was questioning you 4 last week that we had kind of established that you were the 5 guy that knew all about the records and there's probably 6 nobody here that knew more about records than you. 7 Do you know whether missing records out of a PC 8 folder, the loss of records, would subject someone to 9 internal discipline within the Church? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. And I -- I can answer that a little bit more 13 fully. It would actually depend on the situation. 14 Q. So sometimes it might and sometimes it might not? 15 A. I would assume so. I can say that I've never seen 16 a Com-Ev called on missing folders. 17 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen missing folders? 18 A. Oh, yes. 19 Q. PC folders? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. I take that back, you probably haven't seen a lot 22 of missing PC folders, because you weren't cleared to 23 actually look inside them. You've heard about missing 24 folders? 25 A. Well, my folders were missing at one time, so I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
187 1 know they could go missing. 2 Q. Were they ever found? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Where were they found? 5 A. Let's see. They were found in Munich, Germany, 6 and they were transferred from Munich to Clearwater. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. That was in the early 1980s. 9 Q. How long were they lost? 10 A. Three years. . 11 Q. And nobody got too upset about that? . 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Okay. Who found them? 14 A. Our Services Chief, who is a -- well, how do you 15 loosely -- it's kind of a person who -- 16 Q. I!d just soon have a name as opposed to a title. 17 A. Who was that person? 18 Q. Don't remember? It's okay. 19 A. I do. Very close friend of mine that I haven't 20 seen for years. What was her name? I don't remember her 21 name. Husband's name is Jerry. Pars, P -- 22 Q. Who was responsible for losing your folder, do you 23 know? 24 A. It actually wasn't lost, it was where it should 25 have been, it just wasn't transferred from Munich to Flag. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
188 1 Pars. 2 Q. You confused me again. Let's back up 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. I thought the explanation we got last Thursday was 5 it was not uncommon for PC folders to -- 6 MR. FUGATE: I didn't interrupt. then, but 7 I'll interrupt now. I thought he was talking about 8 ethics folders last week. PC folders go with the 9 person. 10 Q. You confused me again. I thought I had clearly 11 established there was no more than one PC folder ever in 12 Clearwater, and you also told me there were seven different 13 folders on her and they were at different locations. Maybe 14 you can explain for me, because now, with Mr. Fugate's 15 explanation, I'm really confused. 16 A. Okay. I don't know how many PC folders of Lisa's 17 was in Clearwater at one time. I would assume that all of 18 them were here, but I don't think. 19 Q. I don't think that's what you told me earlier, but 20 go ahead. 21 A. Okay. There was at least one, because she was 22 receiving auditing here. That's -- that's really all I can 23 say -- 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. -- with certainty. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
189 1 Q. Did you not -- and if this is an inaccurate 2 question, then feel free to say so -- did you not explain to 3 us yesterday and then earlier in your testimony today 4 that -- 5 MS. VAUGHAN: Last Thursday. 6 Q. Excuse me, last Thursday and earlier today that 7 the reason that there were multiple folders, if they weren't 8 consecutive, was that they existed at the various locations 9 where she had attended the Church and that's where they had 10 been located? 11 MS.-VAUGHAN: That's not what he said today, 12 but -- 13 MR. CROW: Okay. 14 MS. VAUGHAN: We never got around to 15 typically where they travel or how they go. In- 16 fairness to the client, no one asked. 17 BY MR. CROW: 18 Q. Well -- 19 A. Let me see if I can explain this. She was a 20 Scientologist in Austin, Texas, for years before she came -- 21 before she went to Los Angeles, then back to Dallas, and 22 then on to Clearwater. Folders would have been created in 23 each of those places where she received auditing. 24 For instance, in Dallas she could have that one 25 folder. She could have gone to -- she was in Los Angeles KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
190 1 for less than a year. It's entirely possible the one folder 2 that was created in Dallas didn't go with her to 3 Los Angeles. But she could have created a second or third 4 folder in Los Angeles. Then she returned to Dallas, and the 5 two folders in Los Angeles could have remained there and 6 caught up with her later. So she would have had a total of 7 three. 8 You understand it's just hypothetical, but this is 9 somewhat typical from my understanding and experience. 10 And then from Dallas she would have gone to 11 Clearwater to be audited. Now, if the organization in 12 Clearwater was on the ball, which I assume they were, they 13 would have called and obtained all of her folders from 14 Dallas and Los Angeles. 15 Q. Okay. Well, that's certainly not what I recall 16 you testifying a few minutes ago, and I don't believe you 17 testified -- I think you testified exactly the opposite last 18 week. So -- 19 MS. VAUGHAN: Just for the record -- 20 MR. CROW: The record will indicate whether 21 I'm accurate or not. 22 Q. But I'm not -- 23 A. Right. 24 Q. I'm not suggesting that you need to comment on 25 that, I just don't want it to appear like I'm acquiescing in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
191 1 that's what you've always said -- 2 A. Right. 3 Q. -- because that appears to be a change of 4 testimony to me. 5 MS. VAUGHAN: That's not a change in 6 testimony, and you didn't ask him. 7 MR. CROW: You weren't here last week. 8 MS. VAUGHAN: You said a few minutes ago he 9 just said that. 10 MR. CROW: I thought Mr Fugate said he did 11 say PC folders last week and he neglected to intervene 12 because -- to correct it as ethics. Is that what 13 you're saying? 14 MR. FUGATE: Exactly what I'm saying. I 15 think you're saying -his explanation that he gave you 16 last week is dealing with ethics folders being around 17 the country, and I understood that the PC folders 18 travel with the person. So I just made that 19 observation so there isn't any confusion, but you can 20 ask him. 21 Q. Well, I thought I had several times, and I thought 22 I asked you earlier did you have any indication there was 23 ever more than one PC folder located in Clearwater when she 24 was here, and I thought you told me no. 25 A. That's correct. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
192 1 MS. VAUGHAN: If he personally knew that? 2 MR. CROW: I didn't ask if he personally knew 3 it, I said was there any indication. 4 Q. Have you ever talked -- because you didn't look at 5 the folders -- 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. -- you have no personal knowledge of how many 8 folders there are, what's in them or what they look like, 9 we've established. 10 So my question is, did you ever have any 11 indication there was more than one PC folder in Clearwater? 12 A. No. 13 MS. VAUGHAN: What he's saying, would you 14 have reason to believe, in the normal course of 15 operation of the Church, although you never saw -- he's 16 not being that precise as to -- 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 MS. VAUGHAN: -- what you saw or what was 19 here. 20 In the normal course of operations, would all 21 of Lisa McPherson's PC folders have been in Clearwater 22 at one time? 23 THE WITNESS: I would assume so.' 24 Q. When you say "assume," is that normal or is that 25 not normal? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
193 1 A. That's normal. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. That is normal. 4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the -- then to what we talked 5 about last time primarily, which was the search that existed 6 in between the Church's response to our first subpoena and 7 prior to the second subpoena being issued. And you 8 explained the reasons for that search and the scope of 9 documents you sought in that, and I don't think we need to 10 reiterate that today. 11 What I would like to inquire about now is your 12 knowledge, personal, firsthand or otherwise, 'cause it's 13 obvious a lot of your knowledge is hearsay, concerning the 14 initial search for records, either prior to the first 15 subpoena and any search done under the first subpoena, 16 whatever knowledge you have of that. 17 In short, you told us about the search after. 18 the -- after the,records couldn't be located, what you did 19 additionally. 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. What I want to know is -- is, I want to exhaust 22 your knowledge on where those files have been since the 23 first time somebody started looking for them and -- and what 24 you did and what other people to' your knowledge did and who 25 might have been in physical possession or have access to the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
194 1 files during that period of time. 2 So let's start out with when you.first became 3 involved or became aware of a search for these~documents. 4 And when I say "these documents," I'm talking about any 5 search that would have included a search for the caretaker 6 records or the Greenwood report or the Janice -- 7 Joyce Johnson report -- 8 MS. VAUGHAN: Janice. . 9 MR. McGARRY: Janice. 10 MR. CROW: Correct the first time. il Q. -- Janice Johnson report, the reports made on 12 December 5th after the three people transported her to 13 New Port Richey and came back. 14 When did you first become aware of a search that 15 would have included looking for those documents or 16 Miss McPherson's various PC folders or pre-OT folders, OT 17 folders, whatever you want to call them? 18 I don't want to -- you know, sometimes we're using. 19 very precise terms, sometimes we're using-general. I 20 don't -- because I don't use the exact term, you understand 21 what I'm looking for? 22 A. I think I do. 23 Q. And I would prefer, I can ask question by 24 question, but I prefer to start out by, why don't you just 25 give me in narrative form what you're aware of was done from KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
195 1 Day 1 to try to locate these things and who was involved in 2 that. 3 A. Okay. So let's start starting from December 15th, 4 1996. That's the first time I was aware of this situation 5 or anything related to it. 6 Q. So even though -- 7 A. I came to -- to Clearwater, probably arrived here 8 on the 16th or 17th of December. And we went through, I 9 guess, what you would call the standard record search. 10 Q. Who was "we"? 11 A. Myself and Elliott. 12 Q. Elliott? 13 A. Abelson. 14 You know, it was like, Glen, go find the usual 15 things. I'm using my own term "usual things," but it was 16 her CF folder, CF files, any public ethics files, any public 17 student files. 18 Let's see, what was it? 19 Q. Not the PC files? . 20 A. No. I believe because -- 21 Q. You didn't specifically exclude the PC files from 22 what you were supposed to look for when -- or you~assumed, 23 when he said find everything, he didn't mean that, or find 24 whatever he said, he didn't mean that? 25 A. He -- I believe he told me the PC files weren't KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
196 1 there, meaning here in Clearwater. I think he had prior 2 knowledge of that. I'm not too clear. 3 Q. Can you be more specific on what he said? 4 MS. VAUGHAN: Well, Elliott Abelson~is 5 in-house counsel for the Church, so to the extent it 6 involves communications between you and your lawyer, 7 you as the client, Elliott Abelson as a lawyer for the 8 Church, then I instruct you not to answer those 9 questions. But I don't have any problem with letting 10 him tell you what he did. 11 Q. I'm going -to ask the question, you can answer or 12 not. 13 What specifically did he tell you about the 14 locations of the PC file? 15 A. I don't remember, actually, and I'm -- I don't 16 remember. 17 Q. Okay. Do you remember whether -- 18 A. I don't remember if he asked me to find the PC 19 folder. 20 Q. Let's go back a little bit. 21 The search you were doing was at the instruction 22 of Mr. Abelson? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did anyone else give you any instructions other 25 than Mr. Abelson? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
197 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. Whatever he said; did you interpret -- you 3 knew what had happened? 4 A. Oh, yes. Yes. 5 Q. I assume you knew Miss McPherson had died? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. You knew she had been surrounded by people 8 employed by her relating to the Church for 17 or 18 days 9 prior to her death? 10 A. I didn't know that. 11 MS. VAUGHAN: Again, I don't understand the 12 relevance of this as to what he did in the search. 13 But to the extent, Glen, you had information 14 at that time that was given to you from counsel, either 15 us, Elliott or anyone else, I'll instruct not to answer 16 those questions. As to what.you did in your search, 17 the facts of what he did, he absolutely can tell you 18 anything at all about that. 19 Q. Okay. My question is, were you aware that the 20 caretaker records existed at the time you began your search? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Were you aware that there might be any documents 23 relating to her treatment by members of the Church at the 24 time you began your search? 25 A. No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
198 1 Q. Then what the heck were you looking for? 2 MS. VAUGHAN: He was explaining that. 3 A. Any information about her. I believe -- well, I 4 certainly didn't, but I believe Mr. Elliott Abelson didn't 5 know anything about Lisa McPherson, except that there was a 6 situation and that she had died and that there was an 7 investigation and -- by the police at that time. And that, 8 of course, this is quite an non-optimum matter, so let's 9 find out some data about her. 10 Q. A what matter? Not optimum? 11 A. Non-optimum. 12 Q. What do you mean by that? 13 MS. VAUGHAN: Again, to the extent -- are you 14 characterizing what Elliott has told you -- 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MS. VAUGHAN: -- or what discussions you had 17 with Elliott? 18 A. No, I'm just actually myself -- it's like somebody 19 has died, this is not good. Non-optimum meaning -- optimum 20 meaning the best circumstances. 21 Q. Meaning it's bad? 22 A. No. 23 MS. VAUGHAN: It's good that somebody dies? 24 MR. CROW: He said not good. I thought it 25 was obvious not good meant bad. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
199 1 Q. But go ahead, what does non-optimum mean? 2 A. Since she died -- 3 Q. That's a euphemism for death or what? 4 A. In this particular case, yes. 5 Q. All right. 6 A. So we -- we -- I went to CF files, I remember, 7 public ethics files, public student files, I made a list of 8 her friends in the local area and started contacting them to 9 see what they knew, what they could tell me about Lisa. We 10 had no idea. I hadn't -- we didn't even know she was from 11 Texas. We didn't know that -- well, we didn't know anything 12 about her at all. 13 And we gathered those documents together. I 14 started to put them in a chronological form: 15 Q. Let me backtrack. 16 Are you just looking for documents or are you 17 talking to people at the same time, are you interviewing 18 people? 19 A. No, I was looking for documents. 20 Q. Okay. And one thing I'm still unclear on, were 21 you looking for an ethics folder? Is that one of the things 22 you were looking for? 23 A. Public ethics folder, yes. . 24 Q. Is there another ethics folder other than the 25 public ethics folder? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
200 1 A. Yes. That would be a Staff ethics folder. 2 Q. But she was not Staff in Clearwater, so that would 3 not be something you would look for in Clearwater? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Was your search extended beyond Clearwater at this 6 time? 7 A. No, Clearwater. 8 Q. Or was it expanded beyond Clearwater? 9 A. No. 10 Q. So we're looking for Clearwater records l't this 11 time? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. You looking for an ethics folder in Clearwater? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. You related some other records you were looking. 16 for. Was it not to look for, assimilate or find or 17 accumulate, or whatever word you want to determine, the -- 18 the PC folder or pre-OT folders or OT folders or anything in 19 that genre, 'cause certainly that would have some of the 20 information that you were looking for? Did you make the 21 decision I'm not going to ask about those or see if they 22 exist or look for them -- 23 A. Right. 24 Q. -- or not? 25 MS. VAUGHAN: The form of the question, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
201 1 whether there was ~ decision made not to look for those 2 folders, and I object to the -- to the form of the 3 question. He never testified that there was a decision 4 made not to search for them. 5 A. But there was -- there was no decision. It was, 6 we're just trying to find out what was going on. 7 Q. Okay. Well, did you decide what to look for or 8 did you just -- how did you make a decision as to what to 9 look for? 10 A. It was -- I know where information could be found, 11 standard lines, standard folders, standard information. 12 Q. And you know lots of information exists in the PC 13 folders, we've been over that, right? 14 A. Well, yeah. But again, I didn't think of looking 15 in there because I wasn't Clear or above. And I thought to 16 myself, I really have no knowledge, personal knowledge at 17 all. In fact, no one told me about individuals watching her 18 or staying with her or writing any reports. 19 Q. Did you know she was Clear status then? 20 A. Oh, yes. 21 Q. Okay. So are you saying that you made a conscious 22 decision not to bother to look for that because of her Clear 23 status? Is that what you're telling me? Or is it something 24 else? I'm still not real sure how that -- how your decision 25 process is going. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
202 1 A. Let me answer it this way: I must have made a 2 decision not to look there, because I didn't. But there was 3 nobody directing me to look into it or not look into it. 4 Q. And was the reason not to look in it because of 5 the unavailability to you at your status or because you did 6 not believe they would be physically located here ten days 7 after her death? 8 MS. VAUGHAN: Ten days after death, we're not 9 talking about that time period. 10 Q. Okay. You're~talking about '96 then? 11 A. Yeah, we're not even -- we're not talking about 12 any time period. 13 Q. So nobody looked for these records prior, to your 14 knowledge, prior to 1996? 15 A. To my knowledge at that particular time, no. 16 Q. You're not aware of anybody in~the Church looking 17 for records of this type prior to December 15th of 1996? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You have no knowledge of who may have been -- do 20 you know who was in physical possession of the PC folders 21 prior to December 15th of 1996 22 A. No. No. 23 Q. I'm not just talking firsthand personal knowledge. 24 A. No, I know. 25 Q. I'm talking about hearsay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
203 1 A. No, sir, prior to that date I had no -- I'd never 2 been told. 3 Q. Can I assume then in your search you never asked 4 where they were during that one-year period? 5 A. No. 6 Q. No, you have not asked? 7 A. I actually did ask later, later in my little 8 narrative that I'm about to give you. 9 Q. Well, let's -- 10 A. We discovered -- you know, this was an initial 11 search. And there was a time, I believe in January I had 12 been informed, and I don't remember who, it was later, that 13 the PC folders were not there in Clearwater. So it was 14 like, okay, they're not here. 15 Q. Okay. So sometime after December 15th when you 16 begin your search for local documents you remember that 17 someone, you don't know who, told you that the PC folders 18 were~no longer in Clearwater? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. When I say PC, I mean all of those terms we talked 21 about. 22 A. Exactly, all those folders. 23 Q. okay. 24 A. And I think I could probably state with certainty 25 it was after the new year. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
204 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I just -- 3 Q. Do you recall who it was? 4 A. No, I don't. 5 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether it was an attorney or 6 somebody -- or a non-attorney? 7 A. I would think that it would probably be Elliott, 8 because he and I were the only ones who really had long 9 discussions about what I'd found, what it meant or, you 10 know ... 11 Q. Okay. Let me go back and -- and clarify the 12 question I asked when we talked about the search for records 13 in April as well. 14 I mean, I'm talking about, as we sit here today, 15 have you made an effort to determine either the physical 16 location of those files for the year prior -- subsequent to 17 Lisa McPherson's death or the persons who were in physical 18 possession of those files for the year subsequent to 19 Lisa McPherson's death? Have you today attempted to -- to 20 learn that in attempting to locate the documents? Have 21 you -- have you tried to find out that information, portions 22 or all of it, in an attempt to locate where the documents 23 may currently be? 24 A. I think that I'm -- I'd ask for a clarification on 25 that, because I have done a search, and the -- we've given KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
205 1 you results of the search. 2 Q. Okay. Well, maybe -- maybe it will.be clear if I 3 ask you this: One of the ways -- and I'm not saying you 4 have to look for records the same way I do. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. One thing that comes to my mind when I am looking 7 for stuff that's missing, well, where has it been, where did 8 it used to be. 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Okay. And -- and so I would, naturally, in a 11 search, would try to determine the physical location and who 12 physically possessed the files for that fairly significant 13 period of time, in what we would call backtracking, at least 14 in my vernacular. 15 A. I understand. 16 Q. Did you attempt to determine where those -- the PC 17 folders were during that year long period and who either 18 individually or what department was in physical possession 19 of the files during that period of time? 20 A. I didn't try to find that out, but I was told that 21 the folders were in Los Angeles. 22 Q. The entire time? 23 A. You know, I don't -- there was no parameters. 24 Q. So you have no idea whether that was -- 25 A. No, I don't. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
206 1 Q. -- December 14th that they went there -- 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. -- or December 5th, the day of her death? 4 A. No, I sure don't. 5 Q. So you really didn't -- you were told that, but 6 you really didn't make any organized effort to find it out? 7 A. Exactly. 8 Q. Same -- same thing in terms of who -- whose 9 possession they were in? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Did you -- do you know whose possession they were 12 in for that period of time? 13 A. I was told that -- no. No, I can't really say 14 with certainty. I was told that when they did go to 15 Los Angeles, they were taken under the care of the 16 Church of Scientology International, which ultimately boils 17 down to Mr. Farney, who's the Secretary of the corporation. 18 Q. Okay. Did you talk to Mr. Farney about the 19 location of the records and what he did during his 20 possession of them or if he possessed them? 21 A. No, I didn't specifically. 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. Because I -- well, let's see. When we were doing 24 the search -- now, I'm talking about after April now. 25 Q. Well, I'm talking about any point in time. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
207 1 A. At any point in time, I was told that they were 2 there in Los Angeles and they're there. So, okay, they're 3 there. And that they do belong to, I think it was -- I 4 think Elliott told me that they belong to the 5 Church of Scientology International and that -- well, 6 they're there. Actually, it was as simple as that. 7 Q. Did you speak with Mr. Farney to determine who had 8 access to the folders during that period of time? 9 A. No, I didn't. 10 Q. Did you determine whether during this physical 11 possession of the folders anyone ever took any documents out 12 of the folders? 13 A. No, I didn't, sir. 14 Q. Is there a reason that you didn't ask him that? 15 Did you communicate in writing? Did you ask him about that 16 in writing? 17 A. I don't believe so. I'd have to look at the 18 dispatch that we sent to them. But I wouldn't see any 19 reason why he would take anything out-of it, but I don't 20 even know, I just don't know. 21 Q. Well -- 22 A. I didn't. I didn't ask him. 23 Q. Okay: You had told me that you -- did any of your 24 dispatches go directly to Mr. Farney? 25 A. Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
208 1 Q. Okay. And did he respond in writing or just 2 respond by -- with records, here's records that we have, or 3 what was his response? 4 A. Yes, sir, he did. And I gave you a copy of that. 5 Q. Did you ever ask -- I realize that he says this 6 is -- he may respond, these are all the records we have 7 left. Did you go a step beyond that and say, well, you 8 should have these records too, do you know what happened to 9 them or where they are? 10 A. No, I didn't do that. 11 Q. Did you do that in any of your other searches? 12 Did you make specific inquiry as to things that were missing 13 in the submissions, as to where they might be or did they 14 have knowledge of their destruction or had they ever seen 15 it? In other words, did you ever ask anybody was it in 16 there in 1995? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Even though it's not there in 1997 when you get 19 the subpoenas, have you ever asked anybody, well, did it 20 used to be there? 21 A. No, I did not do that. 22 Q. What about Ben Shaw, have you ever talked to him 23 about specifically the missing records? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Tell me about your conversation with him. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
209 1 And it may have been more than one conversation. I don't 2 want to limit you. You may have had one or 20 or whatever, 3 but tell me about your contact with him. 4 A. Probably more than one. And I -- I guess I 5 could -- let me just think. It was if he had any idea of 6 where these things could have gone. 7 Q. Okay. Now, is this in specific reference to the 8 missing documents that we subpoenaed or is this in your 9 April search where you were looking for anything that ever 10 existed? 11 A. Both, actually. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Yeah, both. 14 Q. And can you give me a time frame of your 15 conversations with him, as best you can, whether it was 16 within a week or month or however -- whatever period you can 17 designate that you had these conversations with him? 18 A. Probably April. Certainly in April. 19 Q. Okay. Again, that's in between the response to 20 the initial subpoena and before we resubpoenaed them. 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Okay. When you talked to him -- 23 A. And, let's see, recently too. I can't remember 24 exactly which day, but it would have been within the last -- 25 well, I -- certainly between the time that you and I spoke KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
210 1 last and present. I'm just trying to nail it down to which` 2 day. 3 Q. That's last week? 4 A. That's a week, yeah. . 5 Q. You talked to him in the last week since -- 6 A. Right. 7 Q. -- we took your statement? 8 And what did he say? 9 A. It's very simple, Do you have any idea where these 10 things have gone? He said, No idea. 11 Q. And why did you talk to him? 12 A. Well, I guess it's because of he and I have -- you 13 know, we came here with Mr. Abelson, okay, and I was, like, 14 out of desperation, I don't want to use the word curious, 15 because I wasn't really curious, I was~like, Where the hell 16 did these things go? His response really was, I don't know. 17 Q. Okay. Well, let me be more specific. Why did you 18 pick Mr. Shaw to ask that question of? 19 A. Well, he is -- he's the -- what do you call it? 20 It's really -- he and I worked together on this with 21 Mr. Abelson. And if anybody outside of the attorneys here 22 and Elliott would know, it would be him. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. In any -- you know, in any manner, way, shape or 25 form. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
211 1 Q. Okay. Any reason you didn't ask him that before 2 you -- you came last week? 3 A. Well, I did, but -- 4 Q. So you asked him again? 5 A. Yeah. It was like, Where did these things go? 6 Q. And he said what? 7 A. "No idea." 8 Q. Okay. I don't think I finished -- I got 9 side-tracked and never finished what, if any, involvement 10 you had -- you indicated in your initial search, which began 11 looking for local records in December of '96, that you made 12 no attempt to acquire any local PC folders. You later told 13 us that they weren't local anyway, but you didn't look for 14 them. 15 At some point in time do you start looking for PC 16 folders? Do you ever get involved in the search for the PC 17 folders belonging to Lisa McPherson? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you ever -- 20 MS. VAUGHAN: Is that prior to April now? Is 21 that what you're asking? I've sort of drifted off. 22 MS. VAUGHAN: He said ever. 23 A. He said ever, and I assume that you mean did I 24 ever, rather than do I ever. 25 Q. Well, let me rephrase it so -- since we have two KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
212 1 time frames. 2 Prior to what you've identified last week as your 3 efforts beginning in April of '97 to look for records 4 relating to Lisa McPherson, prior to doing that, and 5 beginning with your first involvement with the McPherson 6 case, did you ever make any attempt to locate the PC folders 7 or assimilate the PC folders or have someone else locate the 8 PC folders? 9 A. I could probably make a statement about that. 10 This was to Elliott, but it was -- I think I askec?'him . 11 what -- when I was going over during the initial search, I 12 had found certain documents, certain folders, certain 13 things. And I believe the comment was very simple, very 14 quick, What about the PC folders? And I think Elliott said 15 something to the effect of, They're in Los Angeles, I 16 believe. But that's the only -- that's the only thing. 17 Q. Other than this comment to you, you were not 18 involved in locating them or -- 19 A. No, sir. No. 20 Q. Okay. Now, you're aware now that there are -- I 21 think you testified that the caretaker records that have 22 been supplied to us that aren't missing were found in one of 23 these PC folders, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You don't know which one, but one of them? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
213 1 A. Yes. Yes, one of them. 2 Q. Were you involved in any way in that. process? 3 A. In the process of looking in the folders? 4 Q. Or having someone else look in the folders, 5 directing someone else to look in the folders, again, prior 6 to April of '97. 7 A. Prior, no. 8 Q. Okay. Well, they were supplied to us prior to 9 April of '97. 10 A. Uh-huh. 1l Q. And there was a response to the first subpoena, 12 and I assume that the Church may have been looking for 13 this -- you're indicating they're looking for information on 14 this person, maybe this incident since at least, to your 15 knowledge, December of '96, maybe prior to that that you 16 don't know of. 17 Did you,have any participation or knowledge of the 18 search for or the finding of those documents, the 19 caretakers' records that do exist? 20 A. Prior to myself becoming the records custodian? 21 Q. Well, I don't really care when you learned about 22 it, but I'm talking about their initially being found in the 23 PC folder. Who found them, when did they find them, where 24 were they physically located and in whose possession they're 25 maintained between initially found and your doing your KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
214 1 search in April of '97. 2 A. I -- at some point I- did become aware they 3 existed. And they did -- 4 Q. You can't tell me when? 5 A. No, sir. It was -- 6 Q. Was it is '96? '97? 7 A. No, it would be '97. It would be -- I'm not sure. 8 I think it was in March. They went -- I believe they went 9 straight to you. But -- 10 MS. VAUGHAN: The first that you know of them 1l they came through our office? 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I remember seeing them 13 there and someone saying about them being there, but 14 that's all. 15 Q. Okay. There were also some documents that were 16 subpoenaed somewhere generally in February, and then the 17 more specific subpoena which you received prior to your 18 testimony last week for documents that were generated by one 19 or more of the three people who transported Miss McPherson 20 to the hospital the day she died. 21 Other than the efforts you've already detailed 22 concerning sending out written communications beginning in 23 April of '97, did you have any involvement or knowledge of 24 the search for those documents in response to the initial 25 subpoena or prior to that? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
215 1 A. No. 2 MS. VAUGHAN: He just asked you on anything 3 other than sending out those memos. So if -- 4 THE WITNESS: In relation to -- 5 MS. VAUGHAN: To your search. 6 A. Well, you're -- 7 MS. VAUGHAN: What else did you do in 8 addition to sending out those memos? 9 A. Well, a lot. But in relation to those -- you're 10 talking about three reports, if I'm not-mistaken.*~"'~ 11 Q. Well, I'm talking about reports drafted by one or 12 more of the three people. 13 A. Okay. one or more. 14 Q. And I don't want you to retell me about the 15 efforts you made in April -- 16 A. Of course, yeah. 17 Q. -- in the April search, but obviously there was a 18 response to the subpoena which -- which, if you recall from 19 the last part of the statement, there was a disagreement 20 as -- as to -- as to the initial response, and I don't want 21 to get into that again. 22 But did you have any -- any involvement in -- in 23 looking for those records in response to the initial 24 subpoena in February of this year? 25 MS. VAUGHAN: Other than what he's already KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
216 1 testified to? 2 MR. CROW: Well, he hasn't testified to 3 anything in March of this year, that's why I asked 4 that. 5 Q. Did you do anything in February concerning those 6 records? 7 A. I'd have to see the subpoena to refresh my memory. 8 THE WITNESS: Is this it? 9 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 10 (Pause.) 11 THE WITNESS: This is after -- 12 MS. VAUGHAN: The problem I have with the 13 question is that. these records that were subpoenaed in 14 more specific subpoenas were clearly already subpoenaed 15 or we assumed them to be subpoenaed in the earlier 16 subpoenas. 17 MR. CROW: So do we. 18 MS. VAUGHAN: Right. So if you say, did he 19 do anything to look for these records, his search in 20 response to the first subpoenas would be responsive to 21 your question, because he had already looked for them 22 before you served the second subpoenas. 23 MR. CROW: Right. And last week he was very 24 unclear if he had any involvement in the initial search 25 in March that you responded, I think, March 11th with a KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
217 1 letter. And -= and I'm trying to find out if he had 2 any involvement with that. And I had great difficulty 3 in doing that. And I don't want to -- as a matter of 4 fact, the stuff you did in April wasn't responsive to 5 the latest subpoena, it was prior to the latest 6 subpoena. 7 I'm not asking about the stuff you've already 8 testified that you did in April, okay? 9 MS. VAUGHAN: Because anything he did in 10 April would have also -- if he ~ found any additional 11 would have been turned over. 12 MR. CROW: Well, I assume so. 13 BY MR. CROW: 14 Q. But. I'm asking you, did you have any participation 15 before that in looking for any of these things? In other 16 words, did you only start looking for them after someone 17 else decided they were missing or were you involved in 18 determining they were missing to begin with? 19 Is that clearer? 20 A. Yes, that's clear. 21 And yes, the answer is yes, I was involved in 22 looking for documents earlier. 23 Q. Tell me about that. 24 A. And I remember -- I have to look at the subpoenas, 25 actually, to tell you about them. I mean -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
218 1 Q. Well, you know, we're talking about the r~ports of 2 those three people, okay? Did you ever look for those at 3 any point in time prior to April? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did you -- are you aware of anyone else looking 6 for them prior to -- at any point in time prior to April, 7 '97? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Tell me about that. 10 A. I was told that the reports, the caretaker reports 11 had been found and -- that's what I was told, actually. I 12 mean, that's -- that's literally it. I wasn't -- I don't 13 remember anybody saying something specific about them being 14 missing or any missing reports. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. My searches were not focused on the caretaker 17 reports. 18 Q. I'm not talking about the caretaker reports. 19 A. All right. 20 Q. I'm talking about the reports that Mr. -- is it 21 Greenwood has said -- 22 MR. McGARRY: Greenwood, Johnson, Arrunnada, 23 the three people in the van. 24 Q. That all three of them wrote after Lisa's death 25 when they came back. Do you know what I'm talking about? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
219 1 A. Those three specific reports. 2 Q. Any reports by those people concerning that time 3 frame. 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Okay. Have you ever looked for them other than 6 what you've indicated you did in April? 7 A. No. No, sir. No. 8 Q. You didn't look for them in March -- 9 A. No. 10 Q. -- of '97 or earlier in '96 or in Januarf~of '97? 11 A. No, not that I'm aware of. 12 Q. Okay. When did you first learn that there may be 13 reports like that or that Mr. Greenwood was saying he 14 drafted a report like that, but that no-one at the Church 15 had found it yet, that it appeared to be missing from Church 16 documents? When did you first hear that? 17 A. When was -- I believe sometime in March. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. But I don't remember. 20 Q. Do you know who did the initial look for that in 21 response to the first subpoena?. Do you have any idea? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. Same question for the caretaker records. 24 I'm -- I thought I had asked -- obviously, there may be some 25 confusion on your part as to what I was asking, and I don't KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
220 1 want to -- want there to be: 2 Prior to -- did you ever search for any of the 3 caretaker records, either the ones that were missing or the 4 ones that were found, in December, January, February or 5 March? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And we're talking December, '96 to March of '97. 8 Did you do that or do you have any knowledge of anyone else 9 searching for and finding some of those records and also 10 finding that other of those records could not be found? 11 A. I'd have to say yes to that. . 12 Q. Okay. Tell me about that. 13 A. But it was -- it was a general search. It wasn't 14 I was looking for specif is caretaker reports. Again, I was 15 looking for anything and everything in relation to 16 Lisa McPherson's life in Clearwater. And I was aware that 17 other people were looking -- doing a search. 18 Q. Who? 19 A. Well, who? Aware that Ken Long was doing a search 20 in Los Angeles. And I believe that those, though, 21 specifically looked for documents in Los Angeles. 22 Q. Okay. . 23 A. It turned out -- 24 Q. Ken Long wasn't Clear to look at the PC files, 25 right? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
221 1 A. Exactly right. 2 Again, it was a general search. Well, I don't 3 know, I specifically -- I wasn't speaking to Mr. Long at 4 that point. I was given to understand he was looking for 5 anything and everything. That would have included PC 6 folders, that would have included everything. 7 Q. But obviously he couldn't be the one to physically 8 do the search? 9 A. Correct. But other people were working for him. 10 But then again, see, I wasn't privy to anything he40~aas 1l actually doing. 12 Q. Okay. Let me ask a specific question: Are you 13 aware of who found the still existing caretaker records in 14 the PC folder or similar folder, who found those? 15 A. I can only tell you what I was told. 16 Q. Okay. What were you told? 17 A. Actually, I wasn't told who found them, no, sir. 18 Q. Okay. When did you find out they were found? 19 A. Well, that was earlier. That was in -- that was 20 in March that caretaker reports had been found. 21 Q. Okay. Is that when you learned of it, March? 22 A. Yes. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. My attention wasn't -- 25 Q. And you don't remember who you learned it from? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
222 1 A. No. I don't believe -- I believe it was counsel. 2 Q. So you do a second search in April, but you have 3 no idea of the scope or the results, specific results of who 4 looked where for what and what they found or didn't find? 5 A. Prior? 6 Q. Prior to that. 7 A. No. I have some knowledge. I don't know -- 8 let's -- I don't have a comprehensive knowledge. 9 Q. And you made no organized effort to learn. Is 10 that a fair statement? 11 A. In particular relation to the PC folders, no. 12 Q. Well, in particular reference to the caretaker 13 records or the records relating -- drafted by the three 14 people who transported her to the hospital? 15 A. Not for this -- not for, those three people, no. I 16 was looking for records. Those records, any records that 17 would have been written about the incident should be -- 18 should have been found, let's say, by myself in my search. 19 Q. Okay. Well, let's go back then. 20 Where would those reports normally go to? The 21 reports of the three people who took her to the hospital, 22 what folder does that go to? 23 A. Well, I don't know. I have no idea. They could 24 have gone to'an ethics file, they could have gone to her PC 25 folder, I guess. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
223 1 Q. Okay. Whose ethics file? 2 A. I guess Lisa's. 3 Q. You guess? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. You don't know? 6 A. No. 7 Q. There's no standardized -- 8 A. Well, I don't know what kind of reports they were. 9 Q. Let me finish the question, okay? 10 A. Okay. ~` 11 Q. You don't know what kind of reports they were? 12 A. No, I didn't know. 13 Q. Do you know now? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Well, based upon what you know now, what -- where 16 would they have gone? 17 A. Well, looks like they would -- I guess what I'm 18 trying to do is say I haven't seen the reports, so I don't 19 really know where they would have gone. 20 Q. Well, if you had, I have a lot more questions for 21 you, trust me. 22 A. I can imagine. 23 From the PC folders, the reports I've -- caretaker 24 reports -- 25 Q. My question is -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
224 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. -- the reports of the three individuals who 3 transported her to the hospital. 4 A. Right. 5 Q. And I'm distinguishing from the caretaker reports 6 who took care of her before she was transported to the 7 hospital. 8 A. Right. Okay. 9 Q. Okay. Where would those things go? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. You don't know? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea where they might be? 14 A. They could have gone to -- 15 Q. Or can you identify that without knowing the 16 content more than -- 17 A. Not really. That's what I'm trying to say, not 18 really. 19 Q. And what have you done to learn the content of 20 those reports in order to find them? 21 A. Well, nothing really, not to learn the content of 22 them. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I mean, they're reports about this incident. They 25 could have been in any one of those locations that I looked. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
225 1 And I looked in those areas and there were no reports. 2 Q. Okay. You don't know -- there's no standard 3 routing for such a report? 4 A. Not, that I know of. 5 Q. Well, let me ask you this: When the church -- if 6 reports are done in contemplation of litigation, if the 7 Church has a bad incident, if it expects to be sued, if it 8 expects to get in trouble.-- you've been in the legal area 9 for most of your career in the Church, that's what you're 10 doing now? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. Where do those things go? 13 A. It would depend on the situation. 14 Q. Okay. Well, give me the variety of situations. 15 Somebody says, do a report, we may get sued. Where does it 16 go? 17 A. Oh. 18 Q. If that's what happened: I'm not saying it 19 happened here, we don't know. 20 A. In that particular case, it would go to counsel. 21 Q. Well --. 22 A. It would be a report from -- 23 Q. The counsel, when you say counsel, who are you 24 speaking of? 25 A. The attorneys for the Church. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
226 1 Q. Well,. you nodded to -- to the attorneys here. 2 Obviously, they weren't retained -- were they retained in 3 December of '95? 4 A. It was late December sometime. 5 MS. VAUGHAN: He said '95. 6 ~ A. I'm sorry, '96. 7 No, I don't know who. 8 Q. Well, who would have an idea when -- if someone is 9 actually directing -- and we've been told at least by 10 counsel at the last portion of the statement that they 11 believe those reports are privileged because they were 12 drafted in contemplation of litigation. Now, obviously, we 13 don't agree with that, but we were told that. That they 14 weren't withholding them for that reason, but. if they had 15 them, they would claim that privilege. 16 So I assume that if he's telling me that, and 17 perhaps you don't know, but -- but I assume since he told me 18 that, that someone made a conscious decision we need to do 19 reports 'cause we might get sued. And I assume that would 20 not be the first time that's happened in the history of the 21 Church of Scientology. And I assume that there must be some 22 organized manner, if you're going to retain something for 23 litigation, to put it someplace so you can-find it when you 24 need it or else what's the purpose in doing it. 25 A. Right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
227 1 Q. You don't have any idea where that stuff might 2 have gone? 3 A. That would have gone to Church counsel at that 4 time. 5 Q. Who was whom? 6 A. I believe it was Robert Johnson. 7 Q. And it would go to his office physically? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Now, did you talk to Mr. Johnson in 10 responding to the subpoena last week? - 11 A. Actually, not in response to the -- his -- to the 12 subpoena, but I have been to his office, and I have looked 13 through the files that he had there for any and all 14 information about Lisa McPherson. 15 Q. Okay. Well, did you ask him if he ever got those 16 reports or if he ever saw those reports, if he knew what 17 those reports were, if he had any clue what they were? 18 Either in writing or in communication, did you ask him? 19 A. I don't think I did. 20 MS. VAUGHAN: If Bob Johnson was acting as 21 counsel for the Church and he is the client, then there 22 would be an attorney-client privilege in -- 23 MR. CROW: If the Church puts him in 24 possession of those documents we subpoenaed, I think I 25 have a right to know if he's in possession of the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
228 1 documents. And I'm asking, did he talk to him about 2 it, on that topic in response to the subpoena. 3 You presented him as someone who's done a 4 search, okay? He says the documents should be in 5 possession of this person. And you're telling me I 6 can't ask him if he found out if that person had the 7 documents? 8 MS. VAUGHAN: If Bob Johnson, another lawyer 9 representing the Church, had them, just like if we had 10 them in our office, you'd have them. 11 MR. CROW: I'm sorry, I disagree physical 12 possession of evidence is a privileged fact. 13 Q. Would you answer the question, please, or invoke 14 your privilege., but take your pick. 15 A. What is the -- . 16 Q. Did you ask Mr. Johnson orally-or in writing if he 17 knew anything about these documents? 18 A. Not in writing, but verbally. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And he identified some files in his office and I 21 went to his office. 22 Q. Okay. Let's backtrack. 23 Did you ask him about the reports of these three 24 people we're talking about? 25 A. No, sir. No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
229 1 Q. Did you just ask him generally about anything 2 relating to the case? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Okay. Did you ever specifically tell him, I'm 5 looking for documents we can't find, these three reports by 6 these three people? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. So you asked him generically, have you got any 9 files relating to Lisa McPherson? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Okay. And you physically yourself looked at them? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Okay. What if he had been in possession of some 14 of-the PC files, what would you have done, or they didn't go 15 to your counsel? 16 A. No, they wouldn't go to counsel. 17 Q. Okay. What if he had been in possession of some 18 of the caretaker records? 19 A. Well, I probably would have retrieved them at that 20 point. 21 Q. Okay. So caretaker records aren't -- well, let 22 me -- I'm kind of confused as to what's PC and what's not. 23 The caretaker records, you could look at those 24 even though they're in the PC folders? 25 A. Well, if they're physically located in the PC KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
230 1 folder and if I could look in the PC folder, I could look at 2 those, certainly. 3 MS. VAUGHAN: He's talking about the nature 4 of the document, Glen. 5 THE WITNESS: Explain. 6 MS. VAUGHAN: Can you look at atcaretaker 7 report as opposed to can you look at her auditing 8 materials? 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, sure. Sure. 10 Q. And did you determine from Mr. Johnson a*what 11 point in time he was retained by the Church in reference to 12 the Lisa McPherson incident? 13 A. No, I didn't. 14 Q. Okay. So do you know whether he was retained on 15 December 5th? 16 A. I know -- 17 Q. The day of her death, I'm talking about. 18 A. I know he was Church counsel before that time. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And he would have -- 21 Q. Do you have like generic counsel or do you have 22 counsel for specific cases or both? 23 A. At that particular time we had two lawyers and 24 they. were generic. And I -- 25 Q. Who was the other lawyer? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
231 1 A. Paul Johnson. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And I know that those two attorneys had worked 4 together, at one time they were a firm, Johnson & Johnson, 5 and I remember speaking to both of them trying to locate any 6 files. I spoke to Paul, and Paul told me that the files 7 would be retained by Bob Johnson, as he took any kind of 8 files with regards to McPherson. 9 Q. Okay. Who would be responsible, from your 10 knowledge of the Church, for taking these reports, if they 11 in fact were done in contemplation of litigation? And, 12 obviously, we may or may not agree with that, but assuming 13 they were done, who would be responsible for transporting. 14 that? Does it go directly to them or does it go to someone 15 in the Church? Is there someone in the Church who's in 16 charge of, say, risk management or something like that? 17 A. It would have been my prior counterpart. 18 Q. And who was that? 19 A. Person by.the name of Judy Johnson. 20 Q. Judy Johnson? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. So -- 23 A. I'm sorry, Judy Fontana now. 24 Q. Judy Johnson then, Judy Fontana now? 25 A. Yeah. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
232 1 Q. It would have -gone, in your opinion, to her first, 2 and she would have then been responsible for getting it to 3 counsel? 4 A. Yes. I didn't talk to her about it, but I'm 5 assuming. She would have been the logical person. 6 Q. And does she have a physical office? Does she 7 have a physical office in the Church? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And a file cabinet? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. And have you personally looked through that 12 file cabinet? 13 A. Absolutely. 14 Q Okay. And have you talked with her? 15 A. Have I talked with her? No, sir. 16 Q. You don't know whether she ever saw the documents 17 or not? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. And you don't know whether she routed them 20 correctly or incorrectly or what she did with them, if she 21 ever saw them. 22 That begs a question: You don't know what her 23 knowledge is of the records, do you? 24 A. I don't, but I remember Robert Johnson telling me 25 that Judy that brought some files to him, but I don't know KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
233 1 what files. 2 Q. Okay. But we don't know if Miss Johnson, now 3 Miss Fontana, has ever been asked if she's aware of the 4 existence or non-existence of these reports? 5 A. No. 6 Q. How would that formally happen? 7 Have you ever -- and I will not ask you specifics 8 about incidents, because I understand that the Church might 9 take the position, even if it doesn't relate to the 10 McPherson case, it may in some other~instance be privileged. 11 But have you ever, in your tenure with the Church, 12 in your involvement in the legal affairs of the Church, 13 asked that people write reports because it's an incident 14 that might have -- create some liability for the Church? 15 Have you ever asked someone to do that? 16 A. Create liability for the Church? 17 Q. You know, get sued. 18 A. Exactly. 19 No, it's more like -= well, yes. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. I think -- 22 Q. Have you done that yourself? 23 A. Yes. But it wasn't more like getting sued, 24 personally, personal experience. For instance, about two 25 months ago or a month ago some shelving collapsed in our KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
234 1 book warehouse and caused extensive damage. And someone 2 said, Steilo, go down there and take a look at this, because 3 there might be some insurance questions. So I went down 4 there, I looked at it, and I said, What happened? I mean, 5 it's obvious from-the physical evidence what happened, but- 6 what -- how did this.come about? And I got descriptions 7 from the staff members in the folder warehouse. , 8 And I said, All. right, write me a report or 9 document this in some way, it was write a report, let-me 10 have a copy of it and I'll take this to Mr. JohnsoM. 11 Q. Okay. So it would be within your.job description 12 and your predecessor's job description, if there was some 13, kind of incident, to direct reports be written? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you ever do that through security personnel or 16 did you always talk to people directly or did you do it in 17 writing sometimes? 18 A. It depends on the situation. 19 Q. Or maybe there's not a standard procedure. Is 20 there a standard procedure for doing that? 21 A. Well, the report is generated by the -individuals 22 who actually saw~or participated in the situations. Let's 23 say traffic accidents -- 24 Q. I think my question was unclear. 25 My question is, when you communicate to the person KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
235 1 to write ---eyewitness to write a report, do you communicate 2 to them orally or in writing or is there a standard Church 3 procedure for it? 4 A. I don't think there's a standard Church procedure 5 for it. I did it orally. Usually when you have a situation 6 it's immediate, something immediate good or bad has happened 7 and -- 8 Q. So it would -- would it be normal then if someone 9 orally or in writing asked for a report to be done that the 10 report would then go back to the person who direcMd that it 11 be done? 12 A. Yes and no. It depends. It would depend. 13 For instance, if I was going to take it to Church 14 counsel, I would ask for the person to write a report and it 15 would come to me. But, for instance, if, let's say -- I'm 16 just trying to think about what circumstance I would tell 17 somebody to write a Knowledge Report. A Staff member was 18 habitually late to a particular meeting that he should be 19 to. I would tell another Staff member, you know, who's in 20 charge of. the meeting to write a Knowledge Report. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. That would go to the Ethics Officer then. 23 Q. Let me rephrase it a little bit. 24 As you're probably aware, the testimony that we 25 have is, from at least one of the individuals, that the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
236 1 report was handed over to a security person. Is it within 2 the security person's, to your knowledge, in your 3 involvement in the legal affairs of the Church, is it within 4 a security person's authority or position to direct a 5 witness to an incident to write reports in contemplation of 6 litigation or would that have come from some other source? 7 A. That would come from my position as a legal 8 officer. A security person wouldn't write or request 9 reports in~contemplation of litigation. 10 Q. Okay. So they might be the conduit for the 11 directive, but they would not -- 12 A. Exactly 13 Q. -- be the initiating person? 14 A. I would think so. I can't think of any incident 15 where -- 16 Q. I realize you don't know specifically in this 17 instance if that happened or not, I'm just asking generally 18 if that's what you expect. 19 A. Exactly. 20 I -- I -- you have a security guard who sees a 21 situation, and it may be legal or litigious or may not. He 22 would normally write a report as~a Security Officer. 23 Q. Do people have any standing orders, when you 24 have, to use your term, a not optimum situation like this, 25 to call you and let you know about it? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
237 1 A. Standing orders? 2 Q. Or general, just general orders. 3 A. Yeah, it would be -- let's say Security notices 4 something that's not correct or something that is correct, 5 and if they think that the legal officer should know, 6 they'll let me know. And they do it usually in a mode that 7 is appropriate for the situation. 8 For instance, if they hear that in three~weeks the 9 President of Mexico is going to come to the Church and he's 10 going to bring his lawyers with him to have lunch, one of 11 the Security Guards might write to me and say this is going 12 to happen. If they notice that a dog just bit somebody on 13 our property, they might pick up the phone and call me. 14 Q. And would they definitely call,you if somebody 15 died at the Church? 16 A. I don't -- 17 Q. Don't know? 18 A. I actually don't know, because -- 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. -- honestly, this is the first time I've ever 21 heard of this happening. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. So I can't say what they would have done. 24 MR. McGARRY: I've got like* just a couple 25 questions and we'll wrap this up.. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
238 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. McGARRY: 3 Q. This is the subpoena -- so we know exactly where 4 I'm going with this question, this is'the subpoena from back 5 in February. ,This is the original subpoena that I asked 6 for, and which was complied with to some extent with some of 7 the documents that we have from the caretakers' notes. 8 These are the caretakers' notes that I got. 9 Have you seen these? 10 A. I've seen this one on top here. 11 Want me to look at them? 12 Q. You can just look through them. 13 A. Yes, they look familiar. 14 (Pause.) 15 A. Yes. I mean, these -- 16 Q. Okay. You've seen those? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Where did you see these? 19 A. First time I saw these was -- was probably in 20 counsel's office. 21 Q. Okay. Was that in March? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. This was the beginning of March? 24 A. This was in February. You know, I think my timing 25 may be a bit off I think it was in March, I'm still pretty KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
239 1 sure. 2 Q. I'm not trying to trick you 3 This was February 14th. They sent -- I sent it 4 out February 4th, I guess. They complied, I think, a couple 5 weeks later or something with these documents. And these 6 are -- no-tricks here, these are the notes from the 7 caretakers or some of the caretakers. 8 A. Yeah, sure. . 9 Q. The subpoenas that followed have followed up since 10 this with the caretakers that have indicated that they did 11 these, just like these people did, but they're missing. So 12 you understand exactly where I'm going. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. How did these right here get to those lawyers?. 15 Who gave these to the lawyers? Do you know that 16 A. Well, yes. And that was in my recent search. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. In April I spoke with Ken Long, and he 19 specifically told me that there were -- these reports were 20 sent previously. And I believe he did say~to Church 21 counsel. 22 Q. All right. I did not really get the answer I'm 23 looking for. 24 A. Oh, okay. 25 Q. I want to know, how did these get to Church KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
240 1 counsel? Who gave these to Church counsel? 2 A. I don't know who gave them. . 3 Q. You don't know how? 4 A. I No. 5 Q. Who do I ask to find out the answer to that 6 besides Church counsel right here? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Could you find that out,if I asked you to do that? 9 It's not a hard thing to figure out. I mean, this -- 10 A. I guess I could. 1l Q. Bottom line of the investigation here, who gave 12 these to Church counsel? You didn't, right? 13 A. That's right. 14 MS. VAUGHAN: We can work on that, Mark, but 15 to ask this witness to.go and do an investigation for 16 you I think is inappropriate. 17 MR. McGARRY: I just asked if he could. I 18 mean, if he could -- the question really was, could he 19 find out, and he said he probably could. I'm not 20 asking him to do it, because, obviously, he doesn't 21 have to do anything for me, right? 22 MS. VAUGHAN: I think he's identified the 23 person that could then. 24 Q. Who is that? 25 A. I believe it's Mr. Ken Long. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
241 1 Q. And he's where? 2 A. In Los Angeles. 3 Q. Okay. So do you know whether or not he physically 4 delivered these himself -- 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. -- or whether he mailed them? 7 A. I don't know that. I would assume, it's my 8 assumption, that he mailed it. 9 Q. That Ken Long mailed these? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. All right. And you've indicated to Mr. Crow here 12 that these documents, to the best of your knowledge, came 13 from her PC file? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. okay. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that PC file currently resides where? 18 A. In Los Angeles. 19 Q. Okay. And Ken Long is the possessor of that file? 20 A. The Church is. But Ken Long, you know, was the 21 person I worked with. He definitely could tell you. 22 Q. Okay. And have you -- you've indicate to Mr. Crow 23 you have not looked through that particular file, correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. So would you -- would you think that it could be a KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
242 1 possibility that the remainder of these that we're -- the 2 missing ones could be still be in that file in L.A.? Has 3 anybody looked for them? 4 A. The answer to the question is yes, someone's 5 looked for them. 6 Q. Who is that? 7 A. Carol Oaks. 8 Q. Carol Oaks looked for them? 9 A. That person, yes. 10 And I would think, no, there -- they were not 11 there or any other reports. 12 Q. Do you, know why that -- since the litigation is 13 occurring here, not litigation, that the death occurred 14 here, the lawyers are all here, you're here, everybody's 15 here, the files aren't here, the PC files aren't here? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. There's nothing to do with Lisa McPherson in L.A., 18 yet the files are in L.A. Do you know why that is? 19 A. Yes. I think Mr. Farney explained why, that they 20 were sent there. Now -- 21 Q. I know. But everybody's here. My question is -- 22 A. I can -- you're trying -- 23 MS. VAUGHAN: They do have counsel, Mark, in 24 L.A. They have general counsel. We weren't retained 25 till a year ago, but they do have in-house counsel and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
243 1 their in-house Legal Department is in L.A. 2 Right, Glen? 3 THE WITNESS: Right. 4 MS. VAUGHAN: Just want to make sure it's 5 clear, not everybody is here. 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. - 7 Q. You don't know why the files-are there though? 8 A. Other than they belong to CSI, no. 9 Q. And you have specifically asked Mr. long himself 10 whether or not the rest of these or there may be some of 11 these that just may not have gotten pulled out of that file? 12 Did you ask him that specifically? 13 A. I asked him specifically -- I told him that we had 14 to do a thorough search. I told him to do a specific 15 search. I told him to -- 16 Q. He just reminded~me that Long can't look in the 17 file, because he's not a Clear. 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. So that would have been Carol Oaks? 20 A. That would, yeah. 21 Q. Was your conversation with her along those lines? 22 A. I didn't talk to her. 23 MS. VAUGHAN: He asked for the search to be 24 done. 25 A. I asked for the search to be done, and I told him KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
244 1 it had to be thorough, and we told him we had to have 2 everything that was not pre-Clear and privileged. 3 Q. For me to do a thorough search, I would have to go 4 to L.A.? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So you think those missing reports are somewhere 7 other than where these were found? 8 A. If they exist, they are not in the PC folder. 9 MR McGARRY: That's all I have. 10 Doug, follow-up? - 11 MR. CROW: No. 12 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I have a 13 question. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 15 EXAMINATION 16 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: 17 Q. Wouldn't it be routine for caretaker reports, 18 handwritten like this, which I'm finding out is the normal 19 practice, everybody in the Church documents things, would it 20 be normal for those to be carbonized? What I. mean by. that 21 is, they would write and there would be carbon paper and 22 there would be a carbon copy of those? 23 A. It's not normal, no. 24 Q. Could you read this document right here. 25 A. It says, the original goes to ethics by drawing an KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
245 1 arrow pointing to ethics. 2 Q. Stop there a minute. 3 Now, at the top of the caretaker reports -- 4 A. Right. 5 Q. -- we have the arrows, the proverbial arrows going 6 to the Senior CS. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Which would fall in line with that policy. 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Yes, it would have. You're using an arrow for 11 routing. 12 A. Correct. But he's talking about ethics reports, 13 those went to the Senior CS. Which this is not ethics 14 reports. 15 Q. What I'm talking about is the arrows, your arrows. 16 In your organization you use an arrow for routing? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. Right. 19 Go ahead. Continue. 20 A. And it says, and the carbon goes to the person or 21 the portion of the org being reported by Channel B routing. 22 Q. And the title of this is Staff Member Reports? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And the people who wrote those reports are 25 Staff members? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
246 1 A. That's correct. 2 MS. VAUGHAN: But that refers to ethics 3 reports. 4 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: It refers to all 5 reports. 6 THE WITNESS: No, sir, not all reports. 7 MS. VAUGHAN: What he just said is ethics 8 reports. 9 THE WITNESS: He said -- 10 Q. "The report form is simple," want to read that il paragraph? 12 MR. CROW: We don't need to read it. 13 A. Let me read it. 14 The report form is simple when used as a 15 clipboard with a packet of different color flash paper 16 on it. This includes a piece of pencil carbon paper. 17 This same clipboard and carbon one uses for his routine 18 orders. 19 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Thank you. 20 That's all. 21 MR. McGARRY: Is that box you brought for us? 22 MS. VAUGHAN: No. That's the originals with 23 the subpoenas on the outside. If you want to look at 24 the originals -- 25 MR. CROW: I think we'll schedule another KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
Page 247 missing.
248 1 available? 2 MS. VAUGHAN: Although we didn't have any 3 discussions about it, it is classic work product. If 4 you take a look at it, it's classic work product. 5 Whether or not -- 6 MR. CROW: Where did that go? Did that go to 7 counsel? 8 MS. VAUGHAN: To Bob. 9 MR. CROW: Mr Johnson? 10 MS. VAUGHAN: Bob Johnson. 11 MR. CROW: Okay. 12 MS. VAUGHAN: So I think, whether or not 13 we'll quibble -- 14 MR.FUGATE: Went two ways, went to counsel 15 in L.A. and went to Bob Johnson. 16 MS. VAUGHAN: -- we can talk about that one, 17 what we don't want to do is waive some kind of general 18 work product privilege. And you know the waiver is 19 obviously a problem. So, you know, there'd have to be 20 some form of agreement. 21 But the -- I think last week it appeared and 22 from your letter it appears that you may think that 23 there's some group of documents that once existed or 24 that we're not handing over based on the work product 25 exception. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
249 1 MR. CROW: I'm not sure that I think that 2 now. There's no question that Mr. McGarry felt that 3 based upon his communications with you. And that was 4 the -- the subject of extended conversation last week. - 5 But I don't think we're going to resolve that 6 ~ disagreement. 7 I mean, people -- I wasn't privy to the 8 conversation, so obviously he thinks they were 9 different than what Mr. Fugate remembers. I think it's 10 clear that you're saying now that you -- that as far as li you know, and none of y'all have personal knowledge, 12 that the documents that we subpoenaed don't exist. 13 MS. VAUGHAN: And we've done an extensive 14 search for them. 15 MR. CROW: I disagree it's extensive and I 16 disagree it's appropriate, but were not going to 17 resolve that either. 18 The problem that troubles me a little bit, 19 it's somewhat unclear, because Mr. Weinberg has 20 indicated that, we're not refusing to deliver them 21 because they're privileged, but if we had them, we 22 would claim the privilege and not deliver them. 23 MS. VAUGHAN: Well, we'd analyze them. 24 MR. CROW: I'm not sure where that leaves us 25 in case it turns out later, since y'all didn't do the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
250 1 search, somebody intentionally withheld them, whether I 2 can hold that person in contempt or not. So I'm a 3 little -- I'm a little unclear with the ambiguity in 4 the response. And that's something that we may need to 5 work on when I get back from vacation. But -- 6 MS. VAUGHAN: Well, what we can say is that 7 they don't exist, and they haven't been analyzed for 8 purposes of work product. 9 MR. CROW: You've told us that. 10 MS. VAUGHAN: And we conducted an extensive 11 search. That was Glen's purpose. Glen was not to be a 12 fact witness, go from A person to B person to R person, 13 it wouldn't be helpful. 14 MR. CROW: I think it would be very helpful. 15 MS. VAUGHAN: How can he conceivably. 16 MR. CROW: He could have asked people. 17 I'm not going to debate -- 18 MS. VAUGHAN: He is from the 19 Church of Scientology. There are a number of witnesses 20 in the case, and when we got in the case we would 21 request that Mr. Steilo not speak to other witnesses in 22 the case. And I think that's standard. Plus these 23 people are represented by counsel. I don't think-that 24 that is -- I mean, I understand that you're upset about 25 that, but I don't think that that's standard -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
251 1 MR. CROW: I'm not going to debate it with 2 you. 3 MS. VAUGHAN: -- standard procedure. 4 MR. CROW: I'm not going to debate. I've 5 been litigating many years, I'm sure you've got a lot. 6 of experience, and the fact is we don't see eye to eye. 7 We think when we subpoena documents it'should be -- 8 whether the search should involve more than what he did 9 I'm not really going to debate. I think the record 10 will speak for itself. And somebody else, if it ever 11 becomes public, can look at it and decide that. But -- 12 and that's not really something that I think either you 13 or I are going to discuss out and resolve our 14 difference. 15 MS. VAUGHAN: No, although there can be some 16 discussions. And what troubles. me, when we got 17 involved in this case, I think that the police were at 18 a point in their investigation nowhere near where they 19 are today. And a lot of witnesses have come in and 20 talked to them. There were Fed Exes of records. 21 You've got -- 22 MR. CROW: What's point your? 23 MS. VAUGHAN: The point is, I sense 24 animosity, I did, that we're stonewalling or doing 25 something to hinder the investigation. And it's just KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
252 1 the opposite, what we've done. And I think that's -- 2 MR. CROW:. You're entitled to your 3 perception -- 4 MS. VAUGHAN: I don't understand why -- 5 MR. CROW: -- we're entitled to ours. 6 MS. VAUGHAN: I guess I don't understand. 7 You've got a lot of names, you can interview with those 8 people. 9 MR. CROW: We were told we were going to be 10 supplied people who did the initial search. It's only il been a week. I don't know if you're intending -- 12 obviously, this man doesn't know. This man didn't 13 start looking for records until they're already gone. 14 I'll tell you what I'm concerned with. When 15 we have sworn testimony these records existed, we get 16 half of them, to me I do not feel comfortable until 17 I've eliminated the possibility that someone has 18 intentionally destroyed them. I'm not suggesting you 19 did or the attorneys did that. 20 MS. VAUGHAN: I hope not. 21 MR. CROW: But I certainly am not generally 22 inclined for any~person who's under investigation to 23 simply say, well, gee, we asked for somebody to look 24 for them, but it doesn't appear to me that anybody has 25 any idea, from what the witnesses said that we have so KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
253 1 far, where those. record has been, who had access to 2 them, who might have destroyed them, who might have not 3 destroyed them, who might have culled them. I am 4 aggravated and I'm frustrated with what you supplied. 5 And, obviously, we have a disagreement with the 6 completeness, but I don't really want to spend the rest 7 of the day discussing it. 8 MS. VAUGHAN: I think we just have a 9 disagreement. 10 MR. CROW: Give us a witness. 11 MS. VAUGHAN: I think we did as much as the 12 witness -- 13 MR. CROW: Don't interrupt. You want to 14 talk, you can wait till I'm finished. You can say what 15 you want to say, and I won't interrupt you either. 16 MR. CROW: We disagree. I don't think we can 17 resolve it. We can talk a long time, but you and I are 18 going to have different perspectives and I don't think 19 it's productive. We have other people we'll go out and 20 talk to. But the person you characterize as the 21 custodian, no, I was not satisfied with the information 22 I gleaned from him and you're correct in assessing 23 that. But -- but we've got more people to talk to, and 24 we will continue to work on the case as diligently as 25 we can. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
Pages 254 and 255 missing.
256 1 MR. CROW: As I suggested last time, 2 obviously we're interested in where all those files 3 have been. And frankly, we expected the 4 Custodian of Records to be able to do that. And I know 5 I've got a lecture from Sandy last week and this week,' 6 but I've been litigating a long time too, and I've 7 talked to hundreds, maybe thousands of 8 Custodians of Records and qualified witnesses over the 9 years. And so, you know, maybe we have a different 10 perspective on what we expected out of this witness. 11 All I'm trying to do is to -- to find out 12 everything we can. And that's where we'll leave this. 13 And if you've got anything else you've got us to look 14 at, we'll look at it. If you've got more information 15 on what the heck happened to these records and where 16 they were, that's a big concern to me. 17 And I'll behonest with you, I would be -- 18 and I -- I can't believe that you would expect me to be 19 satisfied that if crucial records, half of them show 20 up, half of them don't show up, that I would be 21 satisfied with a witness who has no explanation and did 22 not attempt to -- to investigate what could have 23 happened to them. But we both spoke back and forth on 24 that. I don't think me saying it one more time or you 25 saying it one more time is going to change our KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
257 1 perspective. 2 MS. VAUGHAN: Well, get with us and let us 3 know what's next. 4 MR. CROW: I think Sandy, he was going to get 5 me that information at the last discussion that he 6 was -- my recollection is he said that's a legitimate 7 question, we'll get you all the people involved in the 8 initial search. And we'll wait and see what that -- 9 what comes from that. 10 MS. VAUGHAN: Okay. And we'll continue to go 11 on the other stuff we've got. Obviously, we have other 12 work to do in the case. 13 (Statement is concluded at 3:50 p.m.) 14 * * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
258 1 CERTIFICATE Of OATH 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 5 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was 6 duly sworn. . 7 WITNESS my hand and official seal this _____day of _______________________, 1997. 8 9 (signed, august 11) 10 RUTH M. MARTIN, R.M.R. Notary Public - State of Florida 11 Commission No. CC 643284 Commission Expires: 4/29/2001 12 13 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 15 I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter, 16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent and 17 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 18 I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am 19 I a relative or employee of any of the parties attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially 20 interested in the action. 21 DATED this _____ day of ____________________, 1997. 22 23 (signed, august 11, 1997) 24 _______________________________ RUTH M. MARTIN, RMR 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320