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1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
____________________________________________/
STATEMENT OF: ALFONSO BARCENAS
DATE: March 25, 1997
TIME: Began: 9:10 a.m.
Ended: 10:15 a.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 200B
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex
Clearwater, Florida 34620
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 KEVIN DARKEN, ESQUIRE
Trenam Kemker Scharf Barkin
6 Frye O'Neill & Mullis, P.A.
Barnett Plaza, Suite 2700
7 101 East Kennedy Boulevard
Tampa, Florida 33602
8 Attorney for the Witness
9 ALSO PRESENT:
10 LEE STROPE, Special Agent
Florida Department of Law Enforcement
11
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
12 City of Clearwater Police Department
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
EXAMINATION INDEX PAGE
20
BY MR. McGARRY 3
21 BY AGENT STROPE 27
BY DETECTIVE ANDREWS 45
22 BY AGENT STROPE 54
23
24 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 57
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
3
1 The deponent herein,
2 ALFONSO BARCENAS,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 MR. DARKEN: As in the Greenwood deposition,
7 Mr. Barcenas invokes his rights under the
8 Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution and
9 is testifying pursuant to the provisions of
10 Florida Statute 914.04.
11 MR. McGARRY: All right, we will begin.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. McGARRY:
14 Q. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor. And
15 I'm going to be asking you some questions about the
16 circumstances that surrounded the stay of Lisa McPherson at
17 the Fort Harrison during the period of November of '95.
18 I believe you were employed at that time?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Let me get some background information on you, if
21 I could.
22 What's your date of birth?
23 A. September 29, 1947.
24 Q. Okay. Are you a U.S. citizen?
25 A. No.
4
1 Q. You're not.
2 What is the current status of your citizenship?
3 A. I'm working here with the Church.
4 Q. Okay. And under -- are you here on a Visa?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What kind of Visa?
7 A. Working Visa for Church member.
8 Q. Okay. Where are you originally from?
9 A. Mexico City.
10 Q. Okay. And how long have you been here with the
11 Church?
12 A. Since September, '95.
13 Q. So you'd only been with the Church a couple months
14 prior to this thing with Lisa?
15 A. Exactly.
16 Q. Okay. Were you a member of the Church prior to
17 September of '95?
18 A. Exactly.
19 Q. And was that in Mexico City?
20 A. Well, it was in Mexico City from -- it began on
21 1976, '75.
22 Q. So you've been a member of the Church since '75 or
23 '76?
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. Have you held various positions in the Church
5
1 other than being a Security Guard?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You've always been a Security Guard?
4 A. Well, at the beginning when I got here, I was
5 working in Renovations. It's a -- one of the branches that
6 we have. And I was working there in Treasury.
7 Q. Treasury?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is that?
10 A. I -- I would go and get all the funds necessary to
11 buy whatever it was needed. And contact all the providers
12 to get the necessary things to keep on the renovations and
13 all that.
14 Q. Okay. So you've been on -- so you characterize
15 your position at the Church as a staff member, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you've been a staff member since -- how long?
18 A. Since the day I got here.
19 Q. Since Clearwater?
20 A. September, yeah.
21 Q. So you were not a staff member in Mexico City?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you taking courses in Mexico City?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Okay. How far did you go in the courses?
6
1 A. Well, I finished various courses. There are --
2 there are a infinity of courses that you can take, from
3 administration to self-improving.
4 Q. Okay. How would you characterize your duties once
5 you got your security title there at the--at the Church in
6 Clearwater? What were your responsibilities as a
7 Security Officer?
8 A. Well, at the time that this happened I wasn't a
9 Security Guard.
10 Q. In September of '95 you were not a Security Guard?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How about in November of '95?
13 A. Not yet.
14 Q. Okay. So all this investigation around
15 Lisa Mcpherson's death, at that time what were your
16 responsibilities at the Church?
17 A. I was in -- full-time starting as a trainee to get
18 into -- into Security.
19 Okay. The reason why I ask that is because many -
20 of the people that we've talked to refer to you as a
21 security person.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. So they either did not know that you were not a
24 full-fledged security member on the staff or that you
25 were -- they probably didn't know that you were in training
7
1 for that?
2 A. Well, probably they didn't know --- know my stat.
3 Q. Status?
4 A. Status, et cetera.
5 Q. Okay. At that time who was -- did you have a
6 senior?
7 A. Yes. It was Mr. Paul Kellerhaus.
8 Q. Kellerhaus?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Okay. And he's a security person as well, right?
11 A. Yeah. By that time he was the Senior Inspections
12 and Reports.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. That was his -- his post.
15 Q. So would he be the person that--who was your
16 immediate supervisor?
17 A. I always address to him.
18 Q. He was the person you --
19 A. I received orders from him only.
20 Q. From him only?
21 A. Yeah. Because I was most of the time or all of
22 the time I was studying, so I only received orders from him.
23 He -- he was the one that told me to go and full-time study
24 and that he will call me when he needed me.
25 Q. All right. How about Arthur Baxter, did you
8
1 answer to him as well?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know Arthur Baxter?
4 A. Yes, I do know him.
5 Q. Okay. Did you know him in September of '95?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. November of '95?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. What was his position?
10 A. I think he was the Chief -- the Chief of Security.
11 Q. So would he be Paul Kellerhaus' senior?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Who would be -- which one ranked higher,
14 Baxter or Kellerhaus?
15 A. Mr. Paul Kellerhaus was senior to Arthur Baxter.
16 Q. Okay. At the time of November of '95, were you
17 provided a uniform to designate you as a Security Guard?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How would you characteristically dress?
20 A. I was dressed in blue -- Navy blue pants and light
21 blue shirt with a tie.
22 Q. Okay. All right. So how did you become involved
23 in Lisa Mcpherson's case at the hospital? Who got you
24 involved in that?
25 A. I never was in the hospital.
9
1 MR. DARKEN: At the hospital?
2 MR. McGARRY: Not the hospital, at the hotel.
3 A. Mr. Paul Kellerhaus told me that he wanted me to
4 help him in -- in a special thing.
5 Q. On a special what?
6 A. On a special assignment.
7 Q. Okay. And do you recall where you were when he
8 approached you with that?
9 A. He called me from study. I was studying, and he
10 called me and -- and told me that he wanted to talk to me.
11 Q. All right. Were you alone when you had your
12 conversation with him?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. What did he ask you to do?
15 A. Well, he told me that there was a -- a person that
16 was -- that had an accident, and that from the accident she
17 took his -- her clothes off and she was walking on the
18 street. So that she became, how you -- how can I explain
19 it? Got mentally disturbed by the accident, so she took her
20 clothes off and began walking in the street. So that she
21 went to -- she was picked up by the police. And then she
22 was asked to go to the -- with us to the -- to the hotel.
23 So we were going to take care of it.
24 Q. Okay. So do you remember what day that
25 conversation was that you had with Paul Kellerhaus?
10
1 A. No, not precisely.
2 Q. Okay. Was it after she had been brought to the
3 hotel?
4 A. I -- I should say so, because she was there
5 already.
6 Q. Yes.
7 Do you know how many days she had already been
8 there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. So what precisely -- how precisely would
11 you describe your responsibilities with Lisa Mcpherson?
12 A. Well, my responsibility would be to prevent her
13 for -- from harming herself or harming others, because she
14 was mentally disturbed. And to prevent anybody from the
15 outside to be around making noises or--or things like
16 that. The same as -- I mean, she -- before we knew that she
17 had gone running in the streets with no clothes. So I would
18 have to prevent her from doing that because she could harm
19 herself. I mean, running like that or -- or just running
20 into the streets, she could get hit by a car or something,
21 something of the sort.
22 Q. Okay. Were you -- now, I've talked to a number of
23 people and I'll -- and they've also given me the names of
24 several other women that were actually sitting in the room
25 with her and watching her.
11
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Rita Boykins, Barbro, Susan Rike, Emma, Joan,
3 Patricia Strishner, Alice, a number of women,
4 Janice Johnson, and a number of women.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Were you ever in the room with them watching Lisa
7 or were you always outside of the room?
8 A. I was always sitting outside the room or walking
9 or standing around.
10 Q. Okay. So they had different responsibilities than
11 you?
12 A. Yes, totally.
13 Q. Okay. How would you describe their
14 responsibilities?
15 A. Well, I wasn't inside with them, but they were to
16 -- as -- as far as I know, as far as what I saw that they
17 did, was they--the room was cleaned every three or four
18 times a day because she would get mess. I mean, she was
19 peeing and poohing in her clothes. So they would have to
20 take the clothes out and -- and put some more, how you say,
21 the things in the bed, change --
22 Q. Sheets?
23 A. Linen sheets and things.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. So I would provide everything, because the next
12
1 room was exactly a room where we kept all -- all these
2 things. So I would take all the -- the -- the clothes and
3 everything that were already dirty and would see that they
4 were properly cleaned and everything, and provide the -- the
5 new ones. They were there to help her, feed, clean and be
6 with her.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Trying to avoid that she would do something to
9 harm herself or whatever.
10 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with
11 Alain Kartuzinski?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know who he is?
14 A. Now I know him. By the time I didn't.
15 Q. Okay. Did you -- who is Olivier or Oliver Jaccot,
16 J-a-c-c-o-t? Do you know who that person is?
17 A. No, I don't know that name.
18 Q. Are you aware who, other than Paul Kellerhaus, who
19 is the person that actually organized and got all these
20 women together and put them on a schedule? Who did that?
21 Do you know who did that?
22 A. No, I really don't know.
23 Q. You don't know who organized --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- all the girls as far as their, you know,
13
1 schedules and discussed --
2 A. No. No. Because as far as I know, they were from
3 different departments, so I don't know.
4 Q. All right. So how many days were you sitting
5 outside of that room?
6 A. Well, I would say between eight and ten days.
7 Q. All right. And are you familiar whether or not
8 you were there till the day she left the hospital--I mean
9 left the hotel to the hospital? Were you there the very
10 last day?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You weren't?
13 A. No, I wasn't.
14 Q. Now, who -- was there somebody else doing the
15 exact same thing that you would do that was also in this
16 assignment?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. 'Cause you didn't do it24 hours.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Obviously had to sleep sometime.
21 A. No. I was replaced by another -- another person,
22 Sam Ghiora.
23 Q. Okay, Sam. And what was his -- he was staff,
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
14
1 Q. And what was his position at the Church?
2 A. He was -- he was working by the time as a person
3 that -- that brings people to -- to the Church, that talks
4 to people and brings them to the Church.
5 Q. Kind of a recruiter?
6 A. Kind of a recruiter, exactly.
7 Q. Okay. But he wasn't with Security?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Who's the one that asked him to help you in
10 this assignment?
11 A. I think it was Paul Kellerhaus too.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I'm not sure.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I'm just guessing.
16 Q. Okay. So as far as watching the door --
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. -- besides you and Sam, is there anybody else?
19 A. Not that I know. And basically, we were not
20 watching the door. I mean, we were there if -- if we were
21 needed, you know.
22 Q. Okay. What is the arrangement for that room? I
23 mean, that's -- we're talking about the cabana, right --
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- area of the hotel?
15
1 Does that have a lock on the door?
2 A. Yes. It's a -- a solid -- all -- as all the doors
3 in the hotel, it's the same lock and everything.
4 Q. Does it work with a card or a key?
5 A. Well, all the doors, you need to use the -- the
6 key. And every time that you have to go in, you need the
7 key, because it does lock. They are always locked, all the
8 doors.
9 Q. It's like a hotel door?
10 A. Yeah. Every -- every door in the hotel, when you
11 close the door, if you don't have the key, you need to ask
12 for another one, because it's -- it's always locked.
13 Q. And that's to get in?
14 A. To get in.
15 And -- and the other side, it's a normal -- you
16 just open the door and that's it.
17 Q. Okay. So were you -- what was the last day, if
18 she left on December 5th, and I know that to be a fact --
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. -- when was the last day that you were assigned to
21 assist in this assignment, as best you can recall?
22 A. Uh-huh. To tell you the truth, I -- I don't
23 remember the -- the date exactly.
24 Q. Okay. Well, how about, can you tell me whether it
25 was a day before she left, two days before she left, three
16
1 days before she left, or you're just not sure?
2 A. I'm -- I'm not really sure. But it could be like
3 probably four days, because I -- I knew then when she -- she
4 died, I knew that she died, but it was like four, five days
5 maybe.
6 Q. So does that mean Sam had those duties the whole
7 time or those duty weren't needed anymore?
8 A. At the same time that I was off from that
9 particular duty, he was off too. We were both at the same
10 time out.
11 Q. Out of it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So nobody was around doing your assignment--
14 A. No.
15 Q. -- the last three or four days?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Now, do you know why that is? Did
18 Kellerhaus tell you you weren't needed anymore?
19 A. Yeah, he said that we weren't needed anymore.
20 Q. Okay. Up until that time that you terminated
21 your -- that particular assignment, did you -- how many
22 times, or if you can recall any specific instances, how many
23 times did you go in and actually see Lisa in the bedroom? I
24 mean in her room.
25 A. To be inside the room? In all the time that I was
17
1 there, maybe four, five times.
2 Q. Okay. And -- and what was the nature of those
3 contacts?
4 A. Well, I remember once, one of the girls came out
5 and told me that she was getting a little bit violent and
6 that she broke a -- a lamp that was fixed in one of the
7 walls. So I went to see what -- what was broken and what --
8 if there was glasses or something in the floor. And the
9 lamp was partly plastic and partly wood. So I decided just
10 to take it off. I mean, it wasn't really harmful, but it
11 had edges, so it could cut somebody, so I just decided to
12 take it off. And I took it off, everything.
13 Another time Lisa was sitting in--in the bed,
14 and with the headrest that was wooden, she was hitting her
15 head against it. And it would bounce against the wall. And
16 it was making a lot of noise. And more because she was
17 hurting herself, I decided to take it off too. So that was
18 another time.
19 Another time was, one of the girls came out and
20 told me that -- that she needed help to -- to take all the
21 sheets and things out. So I just went in and took
22 everything out.
23 Q. Okay. Did you ever speak to Lisa?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, I know that there's a reason for that.
18
1 A. Right.
2 Q. There was a policy with the Church that you don't
3 speak--
4 A. Right.
5 Q. -- to people that are in this way?
6 A. Exactly.
7 Q. Okay. And did you adhere to that policy?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Did she ever try to speak to you?
10 A. Well, she would say things. She wouldn't refer
11 like hello, how are you or whatever, but she would say
12 non sequitur things. I mean, she would say normal phrases,
13 but with no sense.
14 Q. And all the time that you were on this assignment,
15 did you ever -- were you ever given the impression by Lisa
16 that she wanted to go home or leave?
17 A. No. I think that -- that she was feeling good
18 there.
19 Q. Okay. At -- during your period of this
20 assignment, did you ever -- did you ever escort or let any
21 guests in to see Lisa when she was there?
22 A. No. No.
23 Q. Okay. If somebody wanted to visit her, would they
24 see you first and then you would let them in? Is that how
25 that would work?
19
1 A. Well, they would see whoever they needed to see.
2 I don't know exactly who. Maybe the Security Chief or
3, Mr. Kellerhaus, I don't know. But they wouldn't go directly
4 with me. If they would go directly with me, I would refer
5 them to Paul Kellerhaus.
6 Q. Okay. Did -- did all of these ladies that I
7 mentioned, did they have their own key and access to this
8 room?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Just you?
11 A. I -- I was the only one that had the key. And by
12 the time I change with Sam, I would give the key to Sam.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And, of course, the -- the front desk, they had
15 another -- another key or whatever.
16 Q. During this period of time you wrote some reports?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You didn't write any reports?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. McGARRY: Do we have a report from a
22 Security guy?
23 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: Yeah, I have it here.
24 Do you want to maybe look through this and
25 see if you did write any reports?
20
1 MR. McGARRY: That's a good idea. Might as
2 well start out with 141. Is that the one you're
3 referring to?
4 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: No. I was just going to
5 let him look through this and see if he recognizes any
6 of his written reports in there.
7 MR. McGARRY: Okay. That's a good idea.
8 (Pause.)
9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 MR. McGARRY: Okay. So the 141 must be
11 another fellow's report, is that what I'm getting?
12 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: Yeah, I guess we were
13 given--
14 MR. DARKEN: We can talk about that later.
15 MR. McGARRY: Okay.
16 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: Okay.
17 BY MR. McGARRY:
18 Q. Were you aware that the girls that I mentioned --
19 were they keeping reports?
20 A. Well, I know that some of them did, because I -- I
21 saw them writing. So...
22 Q. But you're not aware if they all did or whether or
23 not they were --
24 A. No, not really.
25 Q. Do you know what the chain of clearance for those
21
1 reports would be? I mean, how do those reports -- where do
2 they go from the girls? Where do they go next?
3 A. No, I wouldn't know.
4 Q. Okay. All right. During the period of time that
5 you were on this assignment, did you ever see
6 Dr. Janice Johnson come to visit Lisa Mcpherson?
7 A. Well, I --
8 Q. Do you know her, first of all?
9 A. I know Janice, yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Yes. I saw her like, I don't know, several times.
12 Q. Several times?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you -- how would you characterize her --
15 her stay? I mean, were you with her in the room at any of
16 these times?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Never?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Can you give us an estimate of the length
21 of time that she would be in the room?
22 A. Well, it varied from 10,15 minutes to hour.
23 Q. Okay. And that would have been up to your last
24 day, which would have been three or four days prior?
25 A. Um-huh.
22
1 Q. And how about Laura -- how do you pronounce her
2 last name -- Arrunnada?
3 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: We say Arrunnada, but I
4 understand it might be Arrunnada.
5 A. I don't know her second name, I know Laura.
6 Q. Laura.
7 A. But I don't know her second name.
8 Q. Did you -- during your assignment on this with
9 Lisa, did you -- did you ever see her come and visit?
10 A. Yes, I saw her over there.
11 Q. Okay. And were you ever in the room with her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. And how would you characterize the length
14 of time that Laura was in there visiting Lisa? I mean, how
15 much time would she usually spend?
16 A. Well, she was there like for a period of time, and
17 normally in -- in the place of one of the girls. She would
18 just go and replace one of the girls over there. So she
19 would stay, I don't know, six, eight, ten hours.
20 Q. Okay. During this period of time there were other
21 Security Guards that were working this section of the hotel?
22 A. No. Only when-- when I would go eat, for
23 instance, one of the guards would -- would come and tell me,
24 Okay, go, and I'll -- I'll be here.
25 Q. But isn't there a regular security crew that works
23
1 the hotel, a number of Security Guards that work the hotel
2 at all times?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That's what I'm asking you.
5 A. Oh, I see.
6 Yes, normally there is one at day and one at
7 night. There's a shift at daytime and a shift at nighttime.
8 Q. Okay. And how many people are on each shift?
9 A. It varies. It's -- I mean, by that time I think
10 there were like two, three people at night, and during the
11 day there were like maybe five.
12 Q. Okay. And do those individuals have access to --
13 keys to that room?
14 A. Well, the keys to the -- to the hotel are always
15 kept in -- in the front desk. So if they need a key, they
16 go to the front desk and ask for it.
17 Q. I understand.
18 Okay. The day that was to be -- what ended up to
19 be the last day of Lisa's stay at the hotel in the cabana;
20 are you aware of her being assisted out of that--out of
21 her room by any security people?
22 A. I have no idea.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I--I don't know when she went out or--at all.
25 Q. All right. You're regular with Security now,
24
1 right?
2 A. Yes, I am.
3 Q. Okay. Do you have -- do you have a schedule that
4 you keep?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And everybody has a schedule that they keep?
7 A. Yes, everybody.
8 Q. And how is that organized and who organizes that?
9 A. Well, Mr. Paul Kellerhaus is the one that
10 organizes it.
11 Q. All right. And is there a chart somewhere located
12 in that hotel that you look at and realize that you've got
13 eight hours to do between such and such hours and such and
14 such hours?
15 A. Yeah. There is a schedule written down, and we
16 all know that it -- it's over there and we have to follow
17 it.
18 Q. Okay. You weren't on that schedule at the time of
19 November of '95, correct?
20 A. Not at all. I was, as I told you, I was --
21 Q. Special?
22 A. -- studying all the time.
23 Q. Okay. Who is the -- who are the individuals that
24 accompanied Lisa to her home to retrieve her personal
25 effects, do you know?
25
1 A. I -- I don't know. I have no idea.
2 Q. Were you around when that occurred?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are you aware of her ever leaving that room in the
5 accompaniment with anybody or by herself?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So to the best of your recollection, she never
8 stepped foot out of that room?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And to the best of your recollection, she was
11 never -- didn't ever receive any visitors other than the
12 people -- I might not have named all of them, but other than
13 the staff people of the hotel that were assigned to take
14 care of her?
15 A. Exactly.
16 Q. Okay. When did you learn that Lisa had died?
17 A. I think it was either the next day or the day that
18 she died. Mr. Paul Kellerhaus told me.
20 Q. And did you have a meeting with Marcus Quirino?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know who Marcus Quirino is?
23 A. Yes, I know.
24 Q. Were you -- you weren't asked to be present at
25 that meeting?
26
1 A. Well, I was asked to go to the -- to the
2 Coachman Building because I was going to be asked some
3 questions. And when I got there, Mr. Paul Kellerhaus was
4 the one that asked me everything, so I didn't meet with
5 anybody else.
6 Q. Oh, okay. So you talked with Kellerhaus about
7 what occurred, what you did and --
8 A. Exactly. He took notes, and that was it.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Of course, there were many other people around,
11 but particularly I spoke to him and that's it.
12 Q. All right. Did you ever speak to Lynn Farney?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is his position?
15 A. I don't know. He's a -- from the Office of
16 Special Affairs, that's all I know;
17 Q. Okay. And when was that, back -- way back when or
18 recently?
19 A. Well, this was like two weeks ago, three weeks
20 ago.
21 Q. Okay. Anything else in reference to
22 Lisa McPherson that you think would be important in
23 reference to our investigation? Any other observations that
24 you made?
25 A. No.
27
1 MR. McGARRY: I don't have any other
2 questions, but if you could bear with us, the
3 Detectives might have something else that I missed.
4 And I have to remind you that you're under oath as well
5 with them as you are with me.
6 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
7 MR. McGARRY: Okay?
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 MR. McGARRY: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: You're welcome, sir.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY AGENT STROPE:
13 Q. You said that Paul Kellerhaus was your senior back
14 then?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Is he still your senior?
17 A. Yes, he is.
18 Q. And where does Mr. Baxter fit into all this? What
19 was his position back then?
20 A. He was, I think, the Chief of Security.
21 Q. So did you ever see him in the room with Lisa?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know that he had written this report? Are
24 you familiar with his signature?
25 A. No. I don't know if that --
28
1 Q. You don't know if that's his report or not?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Or his signature?
4 A. As far as I don't remember him being around her.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Around where I was.
7 Q. Okay. During your -- your watch there, did you
8 have to write reports?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was there some reason you didn't write reports?
11 A. Simply, nobody told me to do it.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. So I didn't.
14 Q. So unless -- unless someone tells you to, you
15 don't have to?
16 A. Exactly.
17 Q. There are no written orders or procedures saying
18 that when you're on a duty of some sort or any sort, you
19 have to write reports daily?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you write reports now daily?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No.
24 So if nothing happens, you don't have to write
25 anything?
29
1 A. Well, the thing is, there's nothing -- if there's
2 nothing to report, I don't report anything.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. If there's something to report, I say it verbally.
5 Q. Okay. And you said that you saw Dr. Johnson
6 several times. How many times is "several times"?
7 A. I don't know. She would go -- Janice would go --
8 come and go. I don't know. She would come every time that
9 she wanted to come. Mostly she -- she would go like in the
10 morning, sometimes she would return at -- in the afternoon.
11 Q. So on -- so on that day in the -- that she came in
12 the morning and returned in the afternoon, that's two times?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. So how many times total do you say she was there?
15 Was she there twice a day while you were there?
16 A. Maybe.
17 Q. And you were there how many days?
18 A. Eight to ten.
19 Q. So she could have been there16 times?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Right, okay.
22 So it just wasn't several, it was many more than
23 several?
24 A. Well, I say several because -- several.
25 Q. We all know several could mean three or could mean
30
1 ten, that's why I'm trying to clarify.
2 A. Right. I don't know exactly the numbers, so --
3 Q. Did she ever carry anything into the room? Did
4 she have a doctor's bag or anything like that?
5 A. No. She would always take everything, rings and
6 her tag name and take everything off and give it to me
7 sometimes.
8 Q. Why would she do that?
9 A. Well, from -- to prevent Lisa to harm herself or
10 to harm another people. Everything that was possibly loose,
11 she would take it off.
12 Q. Was there -- was there a phone in this room?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So it's not like a regular hotel room that has a
15 television and a phone, or was it just taken out of there?
16 A. No, I took out the -- well, somebody gave me the
17 phone and I took it out.
Q. So they took the phone out?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So there's no communications out of -- out of that
21 room, right?
22 A. Other than -- than telling me.
23 Q. Okay. Now, if someone needed to use the phone,
24 say Dr. Johnson needed to use the phone, where would she go
25 to use a phone?
31
1 A. Well, whenever Janice wanted to use the phone, she
2 would go out and go to the--to the next room.
3 Q. And what is the next room?
4 A. It was the housekeeper.
5 Q. Okay. Did you ever overhear any conversations
6 that Dr. Johnson had in that room?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No, okay.
9 Did she ever tell you who she was calling?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you familiar with a man named Dr. Minkoff?
12 A. I don't know Minkoff, I have -- I have heard him.
13 Q. Did you ever see him at the hotel?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And you spent eight to ten days outside the room.
16 And how many hours a day did you work? I know some people
17 told us they were working as many as16 hours a day.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Did you work16 hours days?
20 A. No. I would be there like 10,12 hours.
21 Q. Okay. So you're there80 to 100 hours all told?
22 A. Yeah. Let's say I would get there like around ten
23 o'clock and would leave at ten o'clock, with the normal meal
24 breaks and that.
25 Q. Okay. So -- so when it was time for a meal break,
32
1 you would -- how do you communicate around? Do you have
2 walkie-talkies?
3 A. Yes, I had a radio.
4 Q. So if it was time for you to go eat, you would
5 call someone?
6 A. No. I would wait until somebody --
7 Q. They would send someone?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. They have a schedule where you would go eat?
10 A. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
11 Q. And then you would be gone for an hour, half an
12 hour and come back?
13 A. Uh-huh. Half an hour,45 minutes.
14 Q. And when you were gone -- when you left there, Sam
15 took -- what's Sam's last name?
16 A. Sam Ghiora.
17 Q. How do you spell that?
18 A. G-h-i-o-r-a.
19 Q. Where is he from? Is he from Mexico?
20 A. No. He's from California.
21 Q. So when you were taken off this watch for good,
22 were you told why you were taken off?
23 A. Because we were not needed anymore.
24 Q. So she wasn't violent anymore?
25 A. She was calm most of the time.
33
1 Q. Now, early in this watch she was violent, she was
2 a threat, she was jumping up and down or doing things that
3 you say were -- were threats to people, and you were needed
4 there.
5 As the watch went on, apparently you weren't
6 needed there anymore, so she was no longer a physical threat
7 to anybody?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. Why was that?
10 A. I don't know. Maybe she --
11 Q. Could it be --
12 A. She -- she was improving. From my point of view
13 is that there was a time when she get to know the people
14 around.
15 Q. So -- so she wasn't so violent?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Was she then allowed to leave --
18 A. Well, I can't say that.
19 Q. -- when she wasn't violent anymore?
20 But you-- but you weren't needed there anymore?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What -- do you remember the number of the room
23 that she was in.
24 A. Seven -- seven four something -- no, I don't.
25 Q. Don't remember, okay. It's been a long time.
34
1 You say these doors are like regular motel doors
2 that you close them and they lock --
3 A. Exactly.
4 Q. -- from the outside?
5 A. Um-huh.
6 Q. And inside, do they have, like motel doors, safety
7 chains or dead bolts?
8 A. Yeah. They have one thing that goes like this and
9 another ... (Indicating)
10 Q. Yeah, I understand. I've seen those.
11 And do they also have a dead bolt --
12 A. And they have --
13 Q. -- like all hotels room?
14 A. Well, I don't remember. They have the -- the
15 thing.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Because you can -- I know that you can open it
18 from the inside very easy, you just turn the knob. But from
19 the outside, it doesn't turn.
20 Q. Okay. Who told you that -- that you would no
21 longer be needed on this watch?
22 A. I don't remember. I -- I remember that in the
23 morning I went to the Security booth to get my radio and
24 tell that -- and say to somebody that I was there, and they
25 told me that I wasn't needed anymore.
35
1 Q. Did they tell you why?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And you've been on security with this organization
4 since then?
5 A. Exactly.
6 Q. Has there ever been any instance since this
7 happened that you did this same type of duty again, where
8 you had to stand outside a room and watch somebody?
9 A. No.
10 Q. This is the only time since you've been a
11 Security Officer?
12 A. Yeah, exactly.
13 Q. What training do you have? Do you have any
14 medical training?
15 A. No.
16 Q. None at all?
17 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
18 Q. And what training do you have in being a
19 Security Officer?
20 A. Well, we go through a normal training. We learn
21 the -- the laws, we learn about how to treat people, how to
22 approach the people, what to look for. If there is a -- a
23 problem between any of our members, staff members and
24 another person, how to act. When to call the police. To
25 help the police, et cetera.
36
1 Q. Is there any -- are there any times when members
2 of your organization are armed?
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. No.
5 A. Precisely, that's one of the -- of the things that
6 we are trained to avoid.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. If we -- if we can talk to the person, it would be
9 better than to utilizing a weapon.
10 Q. Okay. So how many -- you said you went inside the
11 room where Lisa was at four or five times?
12 A. More or less.
13 Q. Did you ever have any physical contact with Lisa?
14 Did she ever try to hit you?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. Did you ever have to hold her hands or did you
17 ever have to hold -- help subdue her, to quiet her down?
18 That would be a normal -- if she's violent, somebody needed
19 to help. And if you were called in, did you ever have to
20 physically lay your hands on Lisa?
21 A. Well, two times I touch her.
22 Once was the first time that I went inside to --
23 to handle the lamp. She put her -- her body in front of me.
24 And I didn't know what to do, so I extended my hand to shake
25 her hand, and she grabbed my hand just as normal. And I
37
1 stood like looking at her and she stood looking at me. And
2 I just let go in a while. And she let go. That's it.
3 And the second time, one of the girls called me
4 because she was acting violent and she tried to hit the
5 girls and everything. She was lying on the bed. And
6 Rita Boykin was sitting in the bed and like putting her arm
7 around her wrist. And she was hitting with her legs on the
8 back of Rita. So I just grabbed the ankles and put them
9 down. And then she began hitting the floor with her toes.
10 So I remember that I put a pillow underneath her toes. And
11 I was just like stopping the feet to -- to hit.
12 Q. Now, was this near the end of your watch or near
13 the beginning of your watch?
14 A. No, this was like the third, four day.
15 Q. Did she ever strike you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever strike her?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know of anybody that struck her?
20 A. No.
21 Q. The last day that you were there, when was the
22 last time you saw Lisa?
23 A. The last day I was there.
24 Q. And how long -- I'm trying to get an idea of when
25 that would have been. Was that close to the time she passed
38
1 away or five days, ten days --
2 A. More or less, five days.
3 Q. So five days from the day she passed away you saw
4 her last?
5 A. Uh-huh, yes.
6 Q. Was she -- could you describe her physical
7 appearance to me then?
8 A. Well, she was little bit thinner. For the rest,
9 she was the same.
10 Q. Did she have any bruises, marks, scratches,
11 black eye?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Nothing?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So you don't remember any physical
16 characteristics?
17 A. No. I remember from the beginning and see it all
18 the way through, she had like -- like kind of a rash here.
19 (Indicating)
20 Q. A rash?
21 A. Rash. Like a -- like when you expose yourself to
22 the sun for a long, long time. Like something here.
23 Q. Red?
24 A. Reddish here and here. (Indicating) But that was
25 it.
39
1 Q. But you say she lost weight?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. As far as you know, was she eating regular? Who
4 would bring meals to her?
5 A. Sometimes I would, sometimes some -- at the
6 beginning some other people was bringing food. And they
7 would bring three plastic foam things with food, one for
8 each; one for her, one for one of the girls and one for the
9 other girl.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And later on, I began bringing the food. And it
12 was the normal food that -- that we ate over there. I would
13 bring the same three amounts of the same.
14 Q. Who -- who would carry off the empty containers
15 and clean out the room?
16 A. Well, as I tell you, every three, four times a day
17 I would take everything out, including the garbage, that all
18 the glasses and the water that I would bring in would be
19 containers.
20 Q. So you brought food and water in, but you have no
21 idea how much --
22 A. How much?
23 Q. -- of it was used?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever hear anybody say that Lisa's
40
1 medically ill and needs maybe hospitalization?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever hear anybody say that she should see
4 a doctor?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Of course, did you ever -- were you ever in the
7 room when Dr. Johnson went into the room?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. And Mark hit on this earlier, if -- if she
10 wanted to see visitors or visitors wanted to see her, you
11 say it would have to go through Mr. Kellerhaus, was that who
12 it was?
13 A. I think so, yes.
14 Q. So they couldn't come right in and visit her?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And why is that? Is that a closed facility over
17 there?
18 A. Well, first of all, because I didn't know the
19 person, so I wouldn't let any -- anyone just like that.
20 Just the -- the normal people that I know, they were there.
21 Q. What if her mother showed up and wanted to take
22 her home?
23 A. I think that she could take her home.
24 Q. Is that right? But she'd have to go see
25 Mr. Kellerhaus first?
41
1 A. Well, yes, of course. I wouldn't let anyone ...
2 Q. You wouldn't let anyone in?
3 A. As I didn't know her mother, whatever, nobody, I
4 mean...
5 Q. And you were outside the door12 hours a day?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when you weren't there, there was someone else
8 outside the door12 hours a day?
9 A. Exactly.
10 Q. And that was your post?
11 A. Exactly.
12 Q. And your job is security, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If there -- if there was an emergency, a medical
15 emergency in that room, and maybe Lisa had a temperature or
16 something, did you have orders who was to be called?
17 A. I would call Security.
18 Q. And who would they call, Dr. Johnson?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You don't know?
21 A. They would normally call a doctor, but --
22 Q. They would normally call a doctor?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Was there ever a time when somebody said, We need
25 somebody here, we need some medical help, call Dr. Johnson,
42
1 call somebody?
2 A. No.
3 We never referred to Janice as doctor.
4 Q. What was her title?
5 A. I don't know. She -- she worked in the
6 Medical Physician Office, but I don't know what her post
7 was.
8 Q. Well, who was in charge of her physical
9 well-being? I mean, everybody seems to be concerned about
10 her mental well-being and her violence. Who was concerned
11 with her medical well-being?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Nobody? Nobody?
14 A. Well, she wasn't sick, I think, that's why.
15 Q. Was there ever a time someone which was one of her
16 caretakers became emotional and came out and confronted you
17 with a problem she was having dealing with this person --
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. -- Lisa?
20 What was that person's name?
21 A. One was Sylvia Delavaga. She had a breakdown.
22 She couldn't confront the fact that -- that she couldn't
23 speak to her and that she was saying incoherent things and
24 acting the way she was acting.
25 Q. So --
43
1 A. So she came out and she cried a little bit. And I
2 said, Well, you're helping her a lot by -- by cleaning and
3 by doing what you're doing, so don't feel bad, just don't
4 listen to her. And that's it.
5 Q. So you're saying she was emotionally upset and
6 obviously upset because she couldn't communicate?
7 A. Yeah. She was sad because of the state of the --
8 of the girl.
9 Q. That's -- that's a little different than not being
10 able to communicate. I mean, what we're hearing is the
11 reason she was distraught was because of Lisa's physical
12 appearance and physical --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- deteriorating appearance.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. That's a little bit different than she was
17 distraught over the fact that she can't communicate with
18 her.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 MR. DARKEN: What's your question?
21 Q. Well, my question is, when -- when she came out of
22 the room, why -- did she tell you why she was distraught?
23 A. No. She -- she wouldn't -- she didn't wanted to
24 talk.
25 Q. So she didn't say anything, she --
44
1 A. I was the one begin talking.
2 Q. So the fact -- the idea that she was distraught --
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. -- that is not Sylvia's?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Is that what you're saying now?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Have you discussed your testimony here today with
10 Mr. Farney?
11 A. Who is Mr. Farney?
12 Q. Lynn Farney --
13 A. No.
14 Q. -- the OSA representative from Los Angeles.
15 A. No.
16 Q. He's not an attorney.
17 A. (The witness shakes head negatively.)
18 Q. Now, other than your communications with your
19 attorney -- and I don't want to get into that, I understand
20 that privilege -- but other than the communications that
21 you've had with your personal attorney, Mr. Darken, have you
22 talked to -- about your deposition today with any other
23 attorney?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are you familiar with an attorney named
45
1 Laura Vaughn? Have you met her?
2 A. No.
3 AGENT STROPE: Lynn Vaughn?
4 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: Laura Vaughn.
5 AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything else.
6 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: I've just got a couple of
7 quick questions and we'll be done.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY DETECTIVE ANDREWS:
11 Q. How far spiritually in the Church have you gone?
12 I've been a little familiar with looking at the chart of
13 Spiritual UP and Sci Clear and everything. How far have you
14 gone along? I don't think you really answered that when
15 Mr. McGarry asked. What have you gotten to?
16 A. Well, I haven't got to Clear yet.
17 Q. Okay. So you're below that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Which would be what? What course are you working
20 on now?
21 A. Well, you can -- you can go on -- on the chart on
22 two sides. One is the -- the auditing side. I've gone up
23 to Grade II. And the other --
24 Q. That's an auditor?
25 A. No.
46
1 Q. Grade II in Auditing?
2 A. In Auditing Section.
3 And the other side, you can study how to do it.
4 But besides that, there are a lot of courses that you can
5 do.
6 Q. Yeah, I saw that, I just was trying to get an
7 idea, and I -- it will come -- understand in a minute.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. What was your understanding of what was going on
10 in this room with Lisa McPherson?
11 A. Well, she was mentally disturbed.
12 Q. Okay. But what I'm trying to get at is, you know,
13 did anybody explain where this was going or -- or what this
14 assignment was going to be and how long it would last or
15 anything like that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I'm a little confused between
18 Mr. Paul Kellerhaus and Arthur Baxter.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Arthur Baxter is the Chief of Security, or was the
21 Chief of Security at -- in November when Lisa was there?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Was Paul Kellerhaus somebody higher than that --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- then?
47
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Which would be what title?
3 A. He was the Senior Inspections and Reports.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Is Arthur Baxter still Chief of Security?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Do you know why?
9 A. No, not really.
10 Q. Not to dwell on it, I have some problems with the
11 "not really." Do you have any idea?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. What does he do now?
14 A. He works as -- at Security still.
15 Q. So he's just a Security Guard now?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would this movement from being Chief of Security
18 to just a Security Guard be a lateral transfer or would that
19 be a demotion?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. All right. If you were Chief of Security and
22 Mr. Kellerhaus told you this afternoon that you're now just
23 a Security Guard, would you have been demoted in the chain
24 of command?
25 A. It depends on the configuration inside.
48
1 Q. Well, there was --
2 A. Like --
3 Q. There was definitely a chain of command there at
4 the time?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the chain of
7 command?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. You answered, Alfonso answered to Paul Kellerhaus,
10 but somehow Arthur Baxter was in between there.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. So my question again would be, today, right now,
13 in the chain of command, if you're the Chief of Security and
14 Mr. Kellerhaus tells you you're now a Security Guard this
15 afternoon,, is that a demotion?
16 A. Well, normally would be as -- as you see --
17 Q. I take that as a yes. A yes, right?
18 A. Well, the thing is that it depends. Because the
19 configuration inside, what we have the board, if you're the
20 Chief of Security and then you're needed in another post,
21 it's not a -- it's not a demotion, it's just you're needed.
22 Q. I can see that if you're needed in a post as MLO
23 or you were needed in ASO as a post, but if you were to stay
24 in the same organization, okay, and become just a Security
25 Guard, there would be no reason to need a Chief of Security
49
1 as just simply a Security Guard, so I'm just going to take
2 that as a yes.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. And we'll leave it at that, so we don't beat it to
5 death.
6 You were there for12 hours. Now, I
7 misunderstood, or maybe I didn't, who relieved you for the
8 other12 hours?
9 A. Sam Ghiora.
10 Q. So you weren't there together?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right. When you would come to Sam and relieve
13 him on -- on shift, would Sam give you a report?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. So he wouldn't say anything to you of what
16 happened on his shift for the12 hours or any kind of
17 update?
18 A. Yeah, he -- he would tell me what was -- the most
19 important things that had happened --
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. -- with it.
22 Q. When you called on your security radio, who did
23 that go to?
24 A. The office, Security Office.
25 Q. Security Office?
50
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then they would call back on that radio, get
3 somebody to -- to come and help you, if you needed help?
4 A. Well, if I needed help.
5 Q. Yeah, if you needed help.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Did you ever -- when you were on watch, did
8 you ever see Mr. Paul Kellerhaus go into the room, Lisa's
9 room?
10 A. No. Not that I remember.
11 Q. Okay. We talked to Valerie.
12 Do you know Valerie?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Okay. Valerie indicates often when she made these
15 reports up that were in here, that she gave them to the
16 Security and specifically said that she gave them to
17 Alfonso Barcenas.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. When she would give you these reports -- and let
20 me go back to -- and I'll specifically just go back to
21 one that she wrote.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. She wrote one to SNR.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Okay. C/S, and it would say "rush."
51
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Now, if you were handed that report, according to
3 the rules and regulations of the Church, where would that
4 report go and what would you do with it?
5 A. I wouldn't do anything with it, because I was
6 there and I was -- I was not able to move. So I would just
7 wait for somebody to come and get it.
8 Q. Okay. Now, did she give you reports that she
9 wrote?
10 A. I remember of one time that she told me that she
11 was going to leave it with me and that somebody was coming
12 to get it.
13 Q. Okay. Is that what happened?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. All right. Who came and got it?
16 A. I don't know the person.
17 Q. All right. If -- if you were handed a report,
18 according to the regulations, if -- and I'll do it
19 hypothetically.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. SNR C/S with a "rush" on it, what would you do
22 with that?
23 A. Nothing. Nobody would give me nothing in the
24 hand.
25 Q. You're in Security now?
52
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you have an understanding of the mail
3 system --
4 A. I do.
5 Q. -- in the Church?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. What does the SNR C/S mean to you?
8 A. Senior, it's Senior Case Supervisor.
9 Q. Who was that at the time?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. You don't know, okay.
12 A. But nobody would give me nothing in hand. I mean,
13 that's not the regulations of the Church. You don't put any
14 communication in hand to another person. You always put it
15 into the in basket or out basket or --
16 Q. Well, my understanding is, if you're in Security
17 now, that you would realize, according to the witnesses that
18 we talked to, that if this was a rush, written on the top
19 "rush," okay, that that would be automatically taken to that
20 person immediately.
21 Now, are you telling me that's not true?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. That's not the -- the way that communications go.
25 Q. Okay. So as a Security Guard outside the door,
53
1 you were not responsible for collecting these reports from
2 these -- from the women who were taking care of her?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you did with that
5 report before somebody came and got lit?
6 A. No. Leave it there with me.
7 Q. Okay. Your instructions from Paul Kellerhaus,
8 okay, did you -- did you believe that you were into some
9 type of Church policy and spiritual Church policy here in
10 assisting Lisa McPherson in this room while you were there?
11 A. I was there just to do what I was doing, not --
12 not to assist her.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. If she was -- well, I don't know. How could I
15 assist her, other than what I was doing?
16 Q. All right. Your instructions from
17 Paul Kellerhaus, if Lisa came to the door and said I want to
18 leave, what were your instructions?
19 A. Well, I didn't -- I didn't receive any
20 instructions on that matter. But if -- if she would come to
21 me and say I want to leave, I would call him immediately.
22 Q. Would you let her leave?
23 A. I would call him immediately. I couldn't make the
24 decision.
25 Q. That's not what I asked. I didn't ask -- I said,
54
1 would you let her leave? Yes or no answer, if you could.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 DETECTIVE ANDREWS: I don't have any more.
5 AGENT STROPE: Just one quick question.
6 MR. McGARRY: All right.
7 EXAMINATION
8 BY AGENT STROPE:
9 Q. We were told by a couple of the ladies that were
10 taking care of her that they would prepare their reports
11 daily.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. And then they would put those reports in a basket
14 in the room next door.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Are you familiar with that process?
17 A. Well, that the way it goes.
18 Q. Okay. Do you know who picked those reports up?
19 A. There is a person named Com Runner. He goes and
20 pick up all the communications.
21 Q. Com, communication?
22 A. Communication Runner.
23 Q. He would go get the reports and take them to
24 whoever they were addressed to?
25 A. That's how they would be taken. That's the
55
1 special carrier.
2 Q. How would it go if it was marked "rush"?
3 A. If it was marked "rush," it would go
4 expeditiously. But he's the one, nobody else to do.
5 Q. The rules are pretty set?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If you want to do something, you don't have to
8 check with your senior, everything is pretty set in the
9 rules?
10 A. Normally you know what to do. You need to know
11 the rules.
12 Q. But there are very strict rules; is that right?
13 A. Yes, you can say so.
14 Q. What would happen if during this watch you
15 deserted your post?
16 A. I what?
17 Q. You deserted your post, just took off and went to
18 the restaurant, went to the restaurant without telling
19 anybody.
20 A. I would get a really big reprimand.
21 Q. What would be the result of that reprimand?
22 A. Well, maybe hard work, like do extra things apart
23 from my post.
24 Q. I see.
25 A. Like go and clean dishes or ...
56
1 Q. Wash dishes, eh?
2 AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything else.
3 Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: You're welcome, sir.
5 * * * * * *
6 WHEREUPON, THE TAKING OF THE STATEMENT WAS
7 CONCLUDED AT 10:15 A.M.
8 * * * * * *
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1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4
5 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
6 duly sworn.
7 WITNESS my hand and official seal this __31st__ day
of ___March___ , 1997.
8
9
10 RUTH M. MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
11 Commission No. CC 277510
Commission Expires: 4/18/97
12
OFFICIAL NOTARY SEAL
13 RUTH M. MARTIN
COMMISSION NUMBER
STATE OF FLORIDA ) CC277510
14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) MY COMMISSION EXP.
APR. 18, 1997
15
I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the statement of the aforenamed deponent, and that
17 the transcript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic notes.
18
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee,
19 attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a
relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
20 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
21
22 DATED this __31st__ day of ___March___ , 1997.
23
24
(signature)
25 RUTH M. MARTIN, RMR