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1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION ORIGINAL
STATEMENT OF: JEANNE DECUYPERE, D.C.
DATE: September 30, 1997
TIME: Began: 9:15 a.m.
Ended: 10:45 a.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARwATER - (813) 821-3320
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2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 ROCHELLE A. REBACK, ESQUIRE
405 West Azeele Street
6 Tampa, Florida 33606
Attorney for the Witness
7
ALSO PRESENT:
8
LEE STROPE, Special Agent
9 Florida Department of Law Enforcement
10 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
11
12
13
14
15
16
17 INDEX
PAGE
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 52
20 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE 67
BY MR. McGARRY 75
21
22
CERTIFICATE OF OATH 78
23
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 The deponent herein,
2 JEANNE DECUIPERE; D.C.,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. State your name, please, for the record.
9 A. Dr. Jeanne Decuypere.
10 MR. McGARRY: Before we begin, is there
11 anything you'd like to place on the record before we
12 start the statement?
13 MS. REBACK: I'm present, I'm her attorney,
14 Rochelle Reback.
15 MR. McGARRY: She's here pursuant to a
16 subpoena?
17 MS. REBACK: Correct.
18 MR. McGARRY: Has been afforded all the
19 protections by that subpoena, right?
20 MS. REBACK: That's correct.
21 BY MR. McGARRY:
22 Q. I'd like to get some background, if I could.
23 First, my name is Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor.
24 I'm investigating the circumstances surrounding the death of
25 Lisa Mcpherson. You've met everybody else in the room.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 I'm going to be asking you some questions
2 involving those circumstances. Your name has come up as
3 being at least peripherally involved during that time
4 period. I think you showed up at the hospital,
5 Morton Plant. So I just wanted to get that information from
6 you.
7 We can start out by asking your birth date, not
8 meaning to pry.
9 A. 9/27/49.
10 Q. Okay. And your residence is located where?
11 A. In Clearwater.
12 Q. Clearwater?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Okay. Where is that? .
15 A. Well, I don't actually have a residence, but it
16 used to be on Bayshore Drive. I just -- I didn't really
17 sell it, but I didn't renew my lease. So now I'm just
18 staying with some friends until my condo's finished.
19 Q. So you're moving?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In the process of moving?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where is your office located?
24 A. 1250 Rogers Street, Clearwater.
25 Q. Are you a sole practitioner or do you have a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 partner?
2 A. Sole.
3 Q. And how long have you been doing that?
4 A. Three years.
5 Q. All right. How long have you lived in Clearwater,
6 total?
7 A. Since 1991.
8 Q. Okay. Where did you live prior to that?
9 A. Michigan.
10 Q. Michigan?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Okay. How long have you been a member of the
13 Church?
14 A. I think that was 1986 or `87.
15 Q. Okay. And I assume you joined the Church in
16 another state, in Michigan?
17 A. No, I don't -- I don't think I quite understand
18 the question now.
19 Q. How did you become involved in the Church? When
20 was your first involvement with the Church and where was
21 that?
22 MS. REBACK: Excuse me. I'm not sure that
23 that's relevant to the inquiry into -- that we're here
24 for, her -- how she became involved with the Church
25 initially.
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1 MR. McGARRY: Why not?
2 MS. REBACK: Well, I mean, I'm just not sure
3 that it is. I don't know whether she's comfortable or
4 not answering those questions. But it just seems to me
5 that that's a little far afield.
6 MR. McGARRY: Well, after we get going, I
7 think you'll realize that most of these questions will
8 be relevant.
9 MS. REBACK: Well, how she initially became
10 involved with the Church?
11 MR. McGARRY: Well, let me ask you this:
12 She's here pursuant to subpoena, right?
13 MS. REBACK: Right.
14 MR. McGARRY: She's got immunity?
15 MS. REBACK: Right.
16 MR. McGARRY: I'm not asking her any
17 privileged information, I'm not asking prying
18 information, other than birth date so far. This is
19 just background to get me started.
20 If you've got a problem, we can back this
21 thing up and go see a judge, and we can make this
22 adversarial right now. I'm not trying to be prying,
23 I'll just starting out my interview with her background
24 with the Church, because that's where Lisa belongs,
25 that's where she belongs.
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1 MS. REBACK: Okay. Why don't we do it like
2 this: Let me just suggest, she's a little bit
3 concerned that there will be questions relating to her
4 participation with the Church or Church functions or
5 Church issues that she may or may not have participated
6 in that may or may not be relevant to your inquiry. So
7 that's the only concern. I'd like --
8 MR. McGARRY: Let me put this on the record:
9 I will make the determination what's relevant under my
10 subpoena for a State Attorney Investigation. And if
11 it's -- you've got an objection to that, we'll just --
12 we'll settle it up with a judge.
13 MS. REBACK: Okay. Why don't we do that.
14 MR. McGARRY: We haven't even started the
15 interview, you've got an objection to me asking her
16 where she got involved with the Church of Scientology.
17 That's not getting very far.
18 MS. REBACK: Right. That's true. Because I
19 don't see the relevancy. -
20 MR. McGARRY: My relevancy in the question
21 is, the Church of Scientology is where they're both
22 members of. Do you agree with that?
23 MS. REBACK Yes.
24 If you asked her, are you a member of the
25 Church, I think she should answer that. But you're
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 asking what the processes were when she initially
2 became involved.
3 MR. McGARRY: No, I didn't. I asked her
4 where she joined the Church.
5 MS. REBACK: But initially, not around the
6 time of your -- the area that you're inquiring into.
7 That's my concern.
8 MR. McGARRY: Do you have a problem with that
9 question, where -- when you joined the Church? Is
10 that --
1l MS. REBACK: No. She answered that one.
12 MR. McGARRY: Is that a problem?
13 MS. REBACK: She answered that. She answered
14 when she joined the Church.
15 MR. McGARRY: Your problem is what state it
16 was?
17 MS. REBACK: No. My problem is, generally
18 are we going to go through her involvement with the
19 Church from the very beginning up until the present?
20 That's my problem or question.
21 MR. .McGARRY: I really didn't think it was
22 going to be a problem, asking her where she joined the
23 Church. If that's a -- I'll skip that. But I have a
24 feeling we're going to end up in front of a judge
25 sooner or later.
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1 MS. REBACK: No. Listen, Mark, my only
2 problem -- that's why I asked you -- is, are we going
3 to go through all of her -- because you asked
4 "initially" -- are we going to go through all of her
5 involvement with the Church from initially to the
6 present? If we are, then I think we do have a problem.
7 If we're not, then we don't.
8 MR. McGARRY: I'm just trying to set the
9 stage, how she got to Clearwater in the first place.
10 MS. REBACK: . Okay. That's the question you
11 might want to ask her then.
12 MR. McGARRY: I did. I asked her where she
13 joined the Church, in what state. She moved to
14 Clearwater what, `91?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MR. McGARRY: Okay. Moved from Michigan?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. McGARRY: Prior to Michigan you lived in
19 another state?
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 MR. McGARRY: Okay. So you joined the Church
22 in Michigan?
23 THE WITNESS: I became familiar with the
24 Church.
25 MR. McGARRY: That's my question. She joined
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 the Church prior to coming to Clearwater.
2 MS. REBACK: Fine.
3 MR. McGARRY: Because she said she joined in
4 1986.
5 MS. REBACK: And that's fine. I asked you,
6 are we going to go -- start with her involvement with
7 he Church initially and go through all of her
8 involvement with the Church up to the present. If
9 we're not, I don't have a problem.
10 BY MR. McGARRY:
11 Q. You joined the Church somewhere prior to 1986 or
12 somewhere during the year of 1986?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Member of the Church in Michigan?
15 A. No, I never participated with anything.
16 Q. Moved to Clearwater, participated with the Church?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Still are a practicing Scientologist?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. McGARRY: Is that okay?
21 MS. REBACK: Fine. Thank you.
22 Q. I understand you are of a level of OT-VIII; is
23 that correct? .
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And have you ever been a member of Staff --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. No.
2 Q. -- in reference to the Church?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You've always been a parishioner?
5 A. A Public, uh-huh.
6 Q. Public is what it's called?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 When did you first meet Lisa McPherson?
10 A. In 1994.
11 Q. Okay. And what reference was that in?
12 A. As a patient.
13 Q. Did she come to you -- how were you recommended to
14 her? I mean, did you know her as a member of the Church or
15 did she come to you as a recommendation or how did you get
16 referred to her?
17 A. She was referred to me by Benetta Slaughter.
18 Q. Okay. And she had a chiropractic problem?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And you ended up treating her for that
21 problem?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that was what month?
24 A. I'll have to look at my records.
25 It was August 24th, 1994.
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1 Q. Of `94?
2 A. Yep.
3 Q. Okay. Do you remember or do your records reflect
4 how many sessions you had with Lisa during that period of
5 time?
6 A. I don't. But if you want me to look at --
7 Q. Well, just give me an estimate. That's not that
8 big a thing.
9 A. 20 or 30.
10 Q. Okay. Did she get improvement from that?
11 A. She had her -- her moments of improvement, yes.
12 Q. What exactly were her symptoms? I mean, what were
13 her complaints?
14 A. - When she first came to me she complained of dizzy
15 spells for the last few months. She also wanted to verify
16 the effectiveness of her supplements and wanted to know if
17 she was salt deficient, as well as a history of this lower
18 back.
19 Q. Okay. Those are interesting topics for, if I
20 might say, for inquiring from a chiropractor. I mean, are
21 you -- are you trained in other areas other than just
22 chiropractic medicine?
23 A. Nutrition is involved in that.
24 Q. It is involved in that in the normal application
25 of a chiropractic practice?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That's interesting.
3 So how did the -- how did those issues come up?
4 Did you make those diagnoses or did she come to you and say,
5 I've got a deficiency in some type of potassium or salt?
6 A. She originated that.
7 Q. She did?
8 A. Uh-huh, yes.
9 Q. Was that -- that information was given to you how?
10 Did she tell you that -- that she had gotten that from
11 somebody else or did she just tell you, I think I'm salt
12 deficient or potassium deficient?
13 A. She just said that that's what she thought. She
14 didn't mention that it came from any other source. She just
15 wrote it down as her chief complaints, that she was having
16 these dizzy spells, she wondered if she was salt deficient.
17 Q. Did you go over with her what her supplement
18 program was?
19 A. At that time she -- she told me what she was
20 taking, yes.
21 Q. Okay. And is that -- was that supplement
22 program -- when you say "supplement program," that is, in
23 addition to your everyday diet, food diet, she was taking
24 what extra? Did you know that? -
25 A. Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. What was that?
2 A. She was taking blue-green algae, Super Q-10, she
3 was taking salt and iron, folic acid, some nutritional packs
4 that come with Bs and Cs and Es and Ds.
s Q. How did she -- did you gain the knowledge of how
6 she had come to get into that, how she -- is that a
7 scientology program that was implemented or was that
8 something she did at a health food store or how did that
9 become implemented in her diet?
10 A. Yes, that was something she did at a health food
11 store. It seems like today many people have been doing a
12 lot of reading and they're familiar with different types of
13 nutrients. And so this was her program that she had somehow
14 come up with.
15 Q. Devised for herself?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Did you advise her on any of that or did you
18 comment on that, how that combination was working for her?
19 A. Well, I did a type of technology that uses muscle
20 testing, it's like applied kinesiology. And so she didn't
21 happen to bring those that day, but I test those things to
22 see if they work well with the body or not.
23 Q. Okay. And did you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was your finding?
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1 A. She needed salt.
2 Q. She needed salt?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. I'm not a doctor, but what is the byproduct of her
5 lack of salt with her physiological well-being?
6 A. Well, what I find clinically is people who are
7 salt deficient then become dehydrated, and with that you can
8 have headaches, you can have dizziness, you can have
9 disorientation, weakness. Sometimes people, I find, throw
10 up, nausea.
11 Q. Okay. Did you recommend a change or were you
12 satisfied with her supplemental program?
13 A. I recommended a change.
14 Q. And what recommendations were made?
15 A. Well, there was a -- there's a salt that I'm very
16 aware of, it's considered an acid salt, that's closer to the
17 salt that's found in the body, and I suggested she take
18 that.
19 Q. Okay. Do you know if she did?
20 A. Yes, she did. -
21 Q. She did supplement with that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Did you make any other observations as her
24 chiropractor during that period of time that you noted in
25 your file about her physical well-being, about whether or
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1 not she was -- had any other medical deficiencies that you
2 might note?
3 A. Well, she did have this back problem, but she also
4 had some allergies. She was complaining about her eyes and,
s basically, seasonal allergies.
6 Q. All right. Were any supplements recommended for
7 the treatment of any of those problems?
8 A. Yes, uh-huh. Yes, I gave her two -- suggested two
9 supplements that are very specific for eyes and -- and
10 natural antihistamine.
11 Q. And what were those?
12 A. It's called Antrinex, this comes from
13 Standard Process Labs, that's its name, Iplex, and then a
14 Basic 4 that feeds the adrenals and heart, there are four,
15 two B-6, B-6 with Niacin, something called R&D and
16 organic iodine.
17 Q. Okay. Did she appear the type of person that was
18 diligent about taking those on a regular basis? Was she one
19 of these hit or miss persons or do you feel that she was
20 pretty consistent with her -- with her regimen of taking
21 these supplements? Is it something she did every day?
22 A. At that point it seems to be diligent. It didn't
23 stay consistent.
24 Q. It didn't stay consistent?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. When did you observe some inconsistency with that
2 particular program?
3 A. Well, just in the course of time she seemed to
4 keep having, you know, different types of problems that she
5 would then come with. And I'd ask, Are you still taking
6 your supplements? And she'd say, No, not necessarily. And
7 then I would just repeat to her that she should, and I would
8 test her for -- for other things.
9 Q. Okay. Can you give me a little bit of chronology
10 of how that was going as far as her dropping off the
11 supplement program, if you can?
12 A. Yes. She was -- she was good for about two
13 months, and then she started having trouble with her back.
14 She had moved a dresser and that created some problems. And
15 then the next notation I have is in November, and she was
16 having some trouble with her period, so we changed --
17 Q. November of `94?
18 A. `94, uh-huh.
19 And we changed her program then. And then she
20 stayed pretty consistent until probably the following year,
21 like in January, things were changing for her.
22 Q. In what respect?
23 A. She didn't seem very happy.
24 Q.- Okay. So I take it that she was not only -- this
25 may be an assumption, correct me if I'm wrong -- she was not
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 only coming to you for chiropractic work, some nutritional
2 advice, but you also confided -- she confided in you as well
3 how she was doing emotionally and as far as her emotional
4 well-being?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you on that level with her?
7 A. Most patients, that is the level I have with them,
8 and she was too.
9 Q. That's what I'm asking. I didn't know what level
10 you got with her.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Did you become friends through all of this, more
13 than just a doctor/patient? -
14 A. Well, I -- I try not to become friends with my
15 patients at all. But I would see her occasionally. She and
16 I were involved with the Winter Wonderland, and so --
17 Q. Which is Benetta's big project, right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Does that project go on every year?
20 A. It had been. I don't know if it's going to happen
21 this year.
22 Q. Okay. And that was -- we'll get to that, but that
23 was what she -- she apparently was working on that this
24 November that she ended up having her problem?
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. Okay. So tell me about what was troubling Lisa as
2 best you can recall during that period of time in January of
3 `95.
4 A. Well, she -- she had trouble with boyfriends. And
5 I know that she had -- I just make occasionally some
6 notations about what is happening in people's lives to see
7 if it's affecting their health or no.
8 But she had -- in February she was back with
9 this -- her boyfriend at that time. His name was Kurt.
10 Q. Payne, right.
11 A. And -- and she emotionally had some ups and downs,
12 it seemed like, with that. -
13 And then she had hurt her back in February 24th
14 and was in quite a bit of pain. So it seemed like
15 everything in her life was more intense at that time.
16 And then we -- in March I have a notation here
17 saying that she needed some salt. She never did, in the
18 whole time I saw her, did well with salt, with the heat.
19 And in April -- on April 4th I have a notation
20 here saying she was very unhappy with basically everything
21 in life. And to me there was definitely some change in her.
22 She was not as outgoing, she seemed to be withdrawn. And --
23 Q. Were you aware that she was trying to correct that
24 through some various programs that the Church offered?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Courses?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. How far through that summer did you
4 continue to treat Lisa, the summer of `95?
5 A. The last time I saw her was the 11th of July.
6 Q. Of July?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Okay. That was a particularly bad period for her,
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. The notations that I have around that time was, in
13 addition to what was happening in her -- to her personal
14 life, she was having a problem with salt. That was a big,
15 big problem for her. She was taking lots and lots of sea
16 salt, lots of this Calamo. She always seemed like people
17 that are dehydrated. She always looked anxious. And people
18 that were about to pass out, that kind of look. She just
19 never looked good that summer to me.
20 And then the 11th she was having trouble sleeping.
21 And then our last real communication was on the 14th,
22 because she was having trouble with salt, and she was dizzy,
23 and she wasn't -- she had no appetite, and she wasn't
24 sleeping. And so she had called me on the phone and asked
25 me for a particular formula to give her over the phone, and
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1 I suggested some salt and potassium. And then she called
2 back, said that helped. Then a couple days later,
3 apparently, if the amount I told her helped at that time.
4 then twice the amount would be better, and that's what she
5 did.
6 But our last -- the reason she -- she stopped
7 coming --
8 Q. Did that result in a problem for her, doubling up
9 on the --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was the result of that?
12 A. Well, she felt sick.
13 Q. Of course.
14 A. And it didn't resolve the problem of her appetite
15 or her sleep or her ability to --
16 Q. Right.
17 A. So on the 14th she called me at my office and said
18 that she had gone to another doctor who had been recommended
19 to her, who had this -- somebody had had a similar problem.
20 And so she -- she went there to get it resolved and it
21 didn't resolve. And I just told her that I probably
22 couldn't take care of her any longer.
23 Q. Okay. So your relationship with her
24 professionally terminated in the end of July -- middle of
25 July, I guess, right?
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1 A. Yes, uh-huh.
2 Q. How would you describe the termination of that
3 relationship? Was there any animosity that built up between
4 the two of you or was it generally pleasant?
5 A. It was pleasant. It was just that, you know, when
6 I have a patient who's non-compliant/or is deciding, you
7 know, to be their own doctor, then I feel that my hands are
8 basically tied.
9 I saw her once or twice after that, at one of
10 these meetings to -- to talk about Winter Wonderland, and we
11 said hello, but we didn't have any lengthy conversation.
12 Q. Okay. Who was the doctor that she ended up being
13 referred to, if you know?
14 A. Jere Jarrett.
15 Q. Jere Jarrett?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Is he a Clearwater doctor?
18 A. Uh-huh, chiropractor.
19 Q. He also is a chiropractor?
20 A. Right.
21 And it was my understanding she saw him that one
22 time, he gave a recommendation for Bs, Vitamin Bs and stuff,
23 but then she didn't go back, as far as I understand.
24 Q. So best you know, she went there one time?
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. All right. Well, were you aware that apparently
2 that summer she had a pretty tough time with -- with several
3 things that she was dealing with? And some of the other
4 Church members described the June period as a -- as her
5 first psychotic break or first real mental problem that she
6 had and she actually sought treatment or some courses, I
7 guess, at the Church, in which she was spending the night on
8 numerous days, or I think she spent a week at the Church
9 receiving courses or counseling or something.
10 Were you aware of that period, that June/July
11 period?
12 A. I knew that things were pretty intense. I didn't
13 know exactly what was happening in June, but I felt it
14 started well before then, in April. Because we didn't
15 socialize outside of my -- my practice.
16 I saw her one time, and I think it was around in
17 April, over at the Church at a restaurant. And she looked
18 pretty unhappy. And she was sitting by herself. And I,
19 since I hadn't seen her and really discussed anything with
20 her, I sat down with her for a little while. And at that
21 time she had talked about suicide. And she had never
22 mentioned that in the course of any of the times that she
23 was ever in my office, but she was that unhappy.
24 Q. That's pretty serious.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Can you -- that probably isn't reflected in your
2 records, but can you describe when that was, as best you
3 can?
4 A. I have an idea that it was in the early spring,
5 like April or so, because when she did come into my office
6 during that time, she was -- she just didn't look happy.
7 Q. Were you aware that she had some -- a history in
8 her family of some mental instability?
9 A. I actually didn't know that until the night of the
10 accident.
11 Q. Okay. How did you gain that information?
12 A. I was working in my office, and I knew that she
13 had been -- because I take care of other patients from AMC,
14 that she was having very erratic behavior.
15 And so that particular weekend there was some kind
16 of convention or seminar in Orlando. And I'm pretty sure
17 this was a Saturday, I should find out, whenever the
18 accident was. Brenda Hubert, who is also a patient of mine
19 and was at the seminar with her, called my office because
20 she needed to be adjusted. She said she had a very bad
21 weekend. I don't remember whether she had a headache or --
22 so since I was working in the office, that was fine for her
23 to come over.
24 So she came over. And she was distraught at the
25 behavior of Lisa that weekend.
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1 Q. Over in Orlando?
2 A. Yes.
3 So during the course of that evening Brenda told
4 me what had happened, about her family situation, her father
5 and --
6 Q. Brother.
7 A. -- brother both had committed suicide and her
8 mother had a little drinking problem. So that's the first I
9 knew anything about her personal history.
10 Q. Okay. So that information came to you from
11 Brenda. And was that prior to her car wreck or after the
12 car wreck?
13 A. It was that -- that night, that evening. It
14 was -- it was dark outside. I don't know what the time was.
15 But Brenda left after the adjustment and her
16 telling me all this. And within five or ten minutes Benetta
17 called me and said that Lisa had been in an accident. And
18 Brenda wasn't even aware of that had happened.
19 Q. Oh, is that right?
20 So she hadn't communicated with Benetta at the
21 time?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What time was that that Benetta called you?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. About.
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1 A. Eight-ish. I don't know.
2 Q. And what action did you take upon that phone call?
3 A. Well, she had asked me if I would go over to the
4 hospital. She didn't know what had occurred or what
5 condition Lisa was in, and would I go. So I said yes, I
6 would. So I did.
7 Q. And the reason why you were called is because you
8 were at least at one time her physician?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Is that a common practice, that you would
11 show up for patients?
12 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
13 Q. And did you go over there by yourself
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- or did you take anybody?
16 A. By myself.
17 Q. Okay. Can you describe who was there when you
18 arrived and what you did?
19 A. When I went through the emergency, I saw
20 David Slaughter, Benetta's husband. I don't recall if he
21 was with someone or not, sthying with someone, I think not.
22 And I said -- asked him where Lisa was. And he said, In the
23 emergency.
24 I asked permission to go back there and they said
25 I could. And when I got to the room she happened to be in,
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1 there was another woman there whose name was Mary, and I --
2 maybe it's DeWitt, I don't -- I don't know what her last
3 name was.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. But she at that time was an assistant to Benetta.
6 Q. To Benetta?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Is she still there, do you know?
9 A. I think not.
10 Q. Do you know Judy Goldsberry-Weber?
11 A. Judy who?
12 Q. Judy Goldsberry-Weber.
13 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
14 Q. Older woman, works in the MLO Office.
15 A. Oh, yes, I do. I did not know what her name was.
16 Q. Was she there?
17 A. Not when I got there.
18 Q. You were there prior to her arrival?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you do when you got back to the
21 emergency, you got in contact with Lisa?
22 A. Yes. I got right in there and I just walked up to
23 her and held her hand. She responded to me, but she was --
24 Q. Were you briefed on exactly what the circumstances
25 of her --
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1 A. No. I had no idea.
2 Q. So you didn't know about that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And for me it was a matter of -just, you know,
6 looking around and seeing what was -- trying to figure out
7 what was going on and what was needed.
8 Q. So you hadn't gained the information she was
9 running around the streets --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- without any clothes on?
12 A. I didn't know what the accident was. And to this
13 day, I don't think I've gotten any of the details, whether
14 it was behind a car or a -- somebody pulling a boat, is
15 that -- might have been what I heard too, I don't know.
16 But the fact that she was there in the hospital, I
17 just basically told her--- you know, trying to be very light
18 about it, that what -- what do you discuss in hospitals?
19 Q. Right. . -
20 A. And I just told her that, you really screwed up.
21 Whatever got her to that point, she was ...
22 Q. Well, how did she appear then? Were you able to
23 look at her and make an assessment as to whether or not she
24 should be admitted or not admitted?
25 A. Well, my own assessmen in looking at her, there
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1 was no contusions, there was no lacerations, there, was no
2 blood. She seemed somewhat like anybody might be if they're
3 in an accident, somewhat bewildered or shocked.
4 Q. How was she clothed at that time, do you know?
5 A. She was in a gown.
6 Q. Oh, something from the hospital --
7 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
8 Q. Did you have any conversations with anybody in the
9 hospital itself?
10 A. Not at that time, no.
11 Q. Did you ever?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who was that?
14 A. Well, there was a -- a psychiatric nurse and an
15 attending nurse of some sort that would come in
16 occasionally, and then there was Dr. Lovett, who was the
17 emergency medical doctor. And during the course of the time
18 that I was standing there, they came in to observe her and
19 ask her questions.
20 Q. So mostly you were just a bystander at this time
21 listening to what's going on?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Did you interject or participate in any
24 way?
25 A. No. I didn't know anything that was
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1 Q. So at the time there was -- I assume they were all
2 assessing her ability to leave on her own accord?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Was that assessment eventually made?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Who made that assessment?
7 A. Well, Dr. Lovett had to.
8 Q. He's the one?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Okay. And what input did he receive from anybody
11 else other than Lisa to help him make his decision that you
12 know of?
13 A. Well, my own personal understand -- thinking on it
14 now, after the fact, is that the biggest problem was
15 wondering about her mental state --
16 Q. Right.
17 A. -- and are they -- when -- at one time I came put
18 into the hall, and I believe it was the psychiatric nurse
19 that I spoke with at that time, and they couldn't understand
20 why a person -- because at this time they told me that she
21 had taken her clothes off, and they couldn't understand what
22 that was. Well, that was at the time that I mentioned that
23 she had this history. And he said, well, that was
24 information that they didn't have.
25 Q. The history of what you just, gave me?
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1 A. Pretty much -- no, about the -- they were -- it
2 looked as though they were viewing her from her mental
3 state.
4 Q. Oh, okay. Her history, family history?
5 A. Family history.
6 Q. Okay. Thank-you.
7 A. I also told them that there was a salt depletion
8 thing that I had been struggling with with her for some
9 months. And then after that -- so it seemed to make more
10 sense to him for some reason. And then after that he came
11 back in and said to her, okay, I'm going to ask you the
12 64-million-dollar question. And he said, What does it mean
13 to you that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?
14 And she said -- you know, gave the appropriate response. He
15 was satisfied with that. And then he left and there was
16 some conferring out in the hallway.
17 One of the nurses came back in. She said that she
18 was going to be released and we'd have to get her clothed.
19 And then that nurse left and shortly after Dr. Lovett came
20 in. And he was -- I think he was the one that came in,
21 perhaps with the nurse, with this release form. And wanting
22 Lisa to sign it and then I signed as a witness.
23 And he was upset of the fact `that, you know, she
24 had taken her clothes off and couldn't quite understand that
25 and -- and asked her if she thought it was normal. And then
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1 said he was releasing her.
2 Q. Do you recall Alain Kartuzinski being there?
3 A. Yes, at some point while I was there he came. And
4 he walked in, I think there was a -- Dr. Lovett may have
5 been there at the time at the bed, by the bed, and he asked
6 who he was. And he said he was her Minister. And he held
7 her hand and just, you know, did the kind of social talk one
8 talks.
9 Q. If I told you he was not crazy about releasing
10 her, Dr. Lovett I mean, is that the position he was taking
11 at that time?
12 A. Well, he seemed angry. I don't know why he was
13 angry. And I -- I don't have any data about that. But he
14 just seemed angry.
15 Q. Okay. You don't know why?
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. We know now that he was convinced or
18 at least the decision was made to release Lisa. Can you
19 tell me what conditions that he required or whether there
20 were any in reference for him to sign out on her?
21 A. No, he said nothing about that.
22 Q. All right. There's a release form that I have
23 somewhere in all these papers in front of me. Did you sign
24 on that?
25 A. I signed a piece of paper, yes.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. And I assumed it was a release paper.
3 Q. Right.
4 Do you recall how that went? Did he ask you to do
5 that or was that something you said you would do?
6 A. Well, I was standing there next to her, so I just
7 signed.
8 Q. Who else signed it, do you know?
9 A. Just her and I, as far as I know.
10 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any conversations with
11 Benetta while you were at Morton Plant?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you familiar with the circumstances of her
14 actually leaving and who she left with? "Her" being Lisa.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And how did that go?
17 A. Well, when they -- when they said that -- when
18 Lovett left, then I helped her get dressed. And she had no
19 shoes, so they brought in -- apparently they can't release
20 someone without something on their feet, so they brought in
21 these little greenpaper things. And -- and I -- I -- I
22 just walked out with her. There was no one else there. And
23 I walked out.
24 And I remember as we were walking out, Dr. Lovett
25 was standing back a bit with somebody else talking. And he
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1 made a comment about her shoes. And we acknowledged his
2 comment. And we walked out. And I -- I actually walked her
3 right out the door.
4 And Mr. Kartuzinski was outside as well. And
5 he -- I was walking on one side of her, and then he came on
6 the other side. And they -- you know, the social thing,
7 How's it going? She says, fine. And he said, Well, you can
8 ride with me.
9 And so I walked with them to the car and helped
10 her get in, because I -- I didn't know if she was still a
11 little disoriented about that. So she got in the car. I
12 put the seat belt on her. They drove to the Fort Harrison,
13 and I followed.
14 Q. You followed them there?
15 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
16 Q. Did you know what the plan was from that point
17 when you left Morton Plant, why she was going there rather
18 than home?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. I mean, you didn't have a conversation where
21 anybody said, hey, let's just take her to the hotel, that
22 would be the best place for her right now, we'll look after
23 her?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Or you were not privy to that conversation?
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1 A. No, I was not privy.
2 Q. Okay. Why did you follow them to the hotel?
3 A. I felt responsible that I saw her to bed. I
4 wanted to make sure that she would either get in bed or, you
5 know, be safe.
6 Q. And did you go straight to the Church hotel?
7 A. Uh-huh. I parked the car, and by the time I then
8 got out, she -- the car had been pulled up. And she wasn't
9 out of the car yet. So there were a couple of people, I
10 don't know who they were, that arrived there by the car too.
11 And when the car opened, I unbuckled her, I took her hand
12 and helped her out.
13 Mr. Kartuzinski took the car away, as far as I
14 remember, and then we walked -- I just started walking with
15 her, because she did seem somewhat still not sure of
16 where -- you know, her orientation. So I just walked with
17 her. And someone said that they had a room available for
18 her. And I walked in with her to the room.
19 Q. So somewhere along here you realized, hey, she's
20 checking in, she's checking in here, she's not going home?
21 A. Yeah. That they had a room for her, yes.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. So we took her into this room.
24 Q. Who's "we"?
25 A. I don't know who the other two people were.
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1 Q. Kartuzinski and you?
2 A. No, Kartuzinski was parking the car. I never saw
3 Kartuzinski after he dropped her off.
4 Q. Okay. Could it have been Judy, maybe, or somebody
5 else from the MLO Office?
6 A. I don't think it was Judy, because I saw her once
7 at the hospital --
8 Q. Right.
9 A. -- but I don't think I. saw her after that.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And then we walked to this room and we went in.
12 And then I --
13 Q. Do you remember where that room was?
14 A. It was what they call a Cabana, and it's -- I
15 don't know what room number or anything.
16 Q. Yeah.
17 A. So then we were -- you know, we're just sitting.
18 I'm thinking, now -- now what? I think about all the times
19 I've ever been to an emergency room, what to do with the
20 patient afterwards.
21 So at some point she said she had to go to the
22 bathroom. So I walked with her to the bathroom, she sat
23 down. And then I was out talking to one person. She was a
24 dark haired woman, I don't even know what her name was. And
25 we were chatting for a while and -- nothing about Lisa,
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1 because I don't think this woman knew and I certainly didn't
2 have all the details.
3 But it seems as though it was some time had
4 elapsed, so I called to Lisa and asked her if she was okay.
5 She said yes. And more time elapsed and I said, Are you
6 finished? And she said, I found a nail here. And I said
7 okay.
8 So then I came to -- around to where she was, and
9 there was this -- the door frame and saw a spot where there
10 was a nail, and she had been interested in that nail,
11 apparently. And I said, Are you finished going to the
12 bathroom? And she said she didn't have to go. So she got
13 up, we walked out, and then sat on the bed until somebody
14 else came. And I felt my -- at that point my job was done.
15 But I did suggest that --
16 Q. Do you know who the person was that came?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. But then as I was leaving, I suggested that she
20 get something to eat, 'cause I didn't know when she'd eaten
21 last. And under the circumstance, with the condition she
22 seemed to be in, that she should have a protein drink. That
23 way she'd be able to get enough protein without having a
24 heavy meal, it might be more palatable to her.
25 Q. Your assessment of this bathroom situation with
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1 the nail, is that -- when you look back on that now, are you
2 of the opinion that she was not quite right right there at
3 that moment?
4 A. It seemed that way. Something was --
5 Q. Amiss?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Okay. Her physical well-being, can you describe
8 that at that moment? I mean, this is apparently the last
9 time you saw her, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 She seemed to me, especially in the course of the
12 time that I took care of her with the salt issue, sometimes
13 she would look thin to me and sometimes she wouldn't. And
14 sometimes she would look with her eyes sunken and kind of a
15 sweaty kind of a thing, like some people get when they're
16 having trouble with salt, potassium. And that's the way she
17 seemed that night. She seemed like that.
18 Q. All right. And that was November 18th in the
19 evening, approximately what time, do you know? Do you know
20 what time it was she got in there?
21 A. I think -- I don't know what time she got over
22 there.
23 Q. Late evening, probably, right?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Did you talk to anybody when you left?
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1 A. No. My last -- my last suggestion was the protein
2 drink, and then I -- I left.
3 Q. Did you discuss with anybody what particular
4 course or program or course of action was going to be
5 implemented for Lisa?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Did you tell Benetta -- did you brief
8 Benetta on what you observed and what you saw?
9 A. Not that night, but probably sometime after.
10 Q. You and Benetta are close, correct?
11 A. We're friends, yes.
12 Q. Benetta was Lisa's employer, right?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Was -- if you know, were Lisa and Benetta close?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were they good friends?
17 A. Very good friends. They came from Texas together.
18 They had worked together a lot and built a business
19 together.
20 Q. Oh, that's where AMC started?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. And they moved the business to Clearwater?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Lisa ever express any -- anything about her
25 pressures from the business end of it all? Was she under a
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1 lot of strain to produce for AMC or maybe from the
2 Scientology aspect of it for the Winter Wonderland project?
3 or do you think any of those aspects of her life played a
4 role with what was happening with her at this point?
5 A. No, I don't think the pressure was from this. She
6 was a very -- very able and very much a high producer with
7 what she did, and she was very good at it.
8 Q. High producer meaning business-wise?
9 A. Uh-huh, business-wise.
10 The only thing that she'd ever mentioned was that
11 she felt she was letting people down in the course of 1995,
12 early, because she was unhappy and sometimes, in my opinion,
13 could be considered despondent in a lay -- from a lay point
14 of view. I think she felt that she was letting people down.
15 Q. And that was, you said, during that summer period
16 that we talked about earlier?
17 A. Well, I think even earlier. I think that was part
18 of that --
19 Q. Earlier than that?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. There's something I was going to ask you about,
22 you might know about this: Do you know Katie Chamberlain?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. She's an AMC employee, right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Lisa was working on that ethics program through
2 AMC?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. During -- it was this period right before this car
5 accident. Must have been October/November. And I guess
6 Katie was handling that program for her.
7 Were you aware of that, what that was all about?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Being an OT-VIII, what does that mean, when
10 she's handling an ethics program for Lisa?
11 A. I don't --
12 Q. I mean --
13 A. I don't know what it pertains to with AMC, but
14 there are certain conditions at any time in a person's life
15 when, you know, they're either doing very, very well or
16 they're not. And so if you're not doing as well as you
17 could, then it's a matter of trying to figure out what it
18 would take to have you do very well again.
19 Q. As I understand, AMC runs their business with the
20 Hubbard tech in mind. I mean, they implement all his
21 theories and business programs that he -- he's written,
22 right?
23 A. His management program, uh-huh.
24 Q. Yes, ma'am.
25 A. Yeah.
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1 Q. So this would have been an aspect of that; if she
2 was having a tough time over there at AMC, then that Hubbard
3 tech would have been applied from that aspect of the
4 business?
5 A. I would think so, but I don't know how --
6 Q. I know you don't know, you don't work there or.
7 anything. So you didn't know about that aspect of her --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- troubles?
10 I get this from-- Brenda Hubert wrote a
11 Knowledge Report --
12 A. Oh.
13 Q. -- and some of that was --
14 A. Oh, I see.
15 Q. -- detailed in there.
16 The reason why I brought that up is because you
17 had the conversation with her that night after they got back
18 from Orlando, which is when she wrote this.
19 A. Oh, really?
20 Q. Yes. So some of this information was probably
21 given to you on that night.
22 Did she give you information about bizarre
23 behavior that Lisa was exhibiting in Orlando?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Would it be normal for somebody to write
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1 something like that down?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I mean, within the practice of Scientology
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. If it gets written down, where does that go?
6 A. Well, most people have an ethics folder.
7 Q. So if anybody sees any other -- any member of
8 Scientology can write a Knowledge Report about any other
9 member of Scientology and that would go to their ethics
10 folder?
11 A. Exactly.
12 Q. Okay. And the purpose of that is what? Who reads
13 that ultimately?
14 A. An Ethics Officer.
15 Q. An Ethics Officer does.
16 Would that be a Minister or would that be somebody
17 other than a Minister?
18 A. It could be somebody other than a Minister. I
19 think perhaps that's the position Katie was holding.
20 Q. Oh, the Ethics Officer?
21 A. Uh-huh, yes.
22 Q. At AMC?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. I gotcha.
25 So were you ever made aware, after Lisa began her
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1 stay at the Cabana, as to her progress? Was anybody giving
2 you any updates on that? Did you ever think to say, hey,
3 better check up on Lisa and see how she's doing?
4 A. No, I did not initiate that, because I felt that
5 she was in good hands. And at one point I did see
6 Mr. Kartuzinski and he said that she was doing well.
7 Q. Okay. What point was that, if you can recall?
8 I know we're asking about stuff that happened two
9 years ago. I'm not going to hold you to anything.
10 Would it have been the weekend of her stay? A
11 week, two weeks into it? Best you can remember.
12 A. Oh, I don't know. September maybe. It wasn't --
13 I don't think it was real early on. May have been a month
14 afterwards, I went --
15 Q. No, no, I'm talking about while she was staying at
16 the Cabana for the two and a half weeks.
17 A. No, no, I didn't get any report.
18 Q. This conversation didn't take place then?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You were relating the Kartuzinski conversation
21 before she went into her --
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. We'll call that a spin. Isn't that what it's
24 called, psychotic break?
25 A. It's called something. I don't know.
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1 Q. Now, my question is more specific: During the
2 period of time that she was staying at the Cabana section of
3 the hotel, did you have any conversations with anybody as to
4 her well-being and how she was progressing?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. How about Benetta, was she getting reports?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Okay. Did you have any conversations with Benetta
9 in reference to those periods -- those days that she stayed
10 there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you ever made aware that she was -- are you
13 familiar, being an OT-VIII, let me ask you this, are you
14 familiar with the term "isolation watch"?
15 A. I've heard the term, but I don't know by
16 definition what it entails.
17 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the term
18 "Introspection Rundown"?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You've never heard that before?
21 A. There are many rundowns, and I know that it's
22 probably one of them, but I don't know anything about it.
23 Q. I've been told from members of Staff that she was
24 there under an isolation watch, she never got to the
25 Introspection Rundown. Apparently you have to be quite
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1 stable for that particular program to be run.
2 A. You know more about it than I do then.
3 Q. I'm learning.
4 But the isolation watch is a practice that you
5 basically try -- they try to keep that person very calm and
6 very sedate and very passive. And they, further, don't
7 speak to that person. That person is allowed to talk, of
8 course, but there's no communication.
9 Are you familiar with that practice?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. So any questions that I might have in
12 reference to that two-week, two-and-a-half-week period she
13 stayed at the hotel, you're basically -- after that accident
14 night that you left her there, that was it for your
15 information about how she was doing at the Cabana?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. When did you learn that she had passed
18 away?
19 A. One day I -- I had stopped at the -- the
20 Fort Harrison and -- doing something else. And Benetta
21 apparently saw me, came to me. Said, I need to tell you
22 something, okay, and then she told me that Lisa died.
23 Q. Okay. Do you know when in relationship to the
24 death that was? I mean, was that the day after, the week
25 after, two weeks after or when was that?
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1 A. I don't even know what day she died. Was that a
2 weekday or weekend?
3 Q. I can tell you. It was a -- it was a Tuesday, the
4 5th of December, in the evening, afternoon/evening.
5 A. Well, then I would think that it might have been
6 the next day. Because I think that's when Benetta might
7 have just heard about it, 'cause it looked like from --
8 'cause her husband then was there too, David.
9 Q. At the Church?
10 A. Uh-huh. And I think they must have just heard
11 about it.
12 Q. Okay. And the reason they were at the Church is
13 because of what?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. And do you know why you were there?
16 A. No, I don't recall why I went there, but it
17 wasn't --
18 Q. You weren't there for the Lisa McPherson thing --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- or meeting or --
21 A. No.
22 Q. Just happened to be there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What did Benetta tell you?
25 A. That she had died. That she had -- something had
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1 happened suddenly and they rushed her up to, I don't know if
2 it was New Port Richey or some hospital north of there, and
3 she died and they didn't know why.
4 Q. All right. Did you act upon that information in
5 any way or was, that just retained? Would you do anything on
6 that?
7 A. No, there wasn't anything I could --
8 Q. I mean, did you go to the funeral? Did you talk
9 to anybody else?
10 A. I did go to the funeral.
11 Q. Did you talk to the hospital? Did you talk to any
12 doctors?
13 A. In the course of this occurring, then I felt I
14 wanted to be very supportive of Benetta too, and Benetta and
15 Brenda were going to go to the funeral.
16 Q. That would have been where?
17 A. In Texas.
18 Because Brenda -- those three girls were very,
19 very close. And so -- and they knew Lisa's family. And so
20 I asked Benetta if it would be a help to her if I went,
21 because both of those girls were my patients, and she said
22 yes, so I went.
23 Q. Okay. So who are the people from Clearwater that
24 went to Dallas that you're aware of? The three of you.
25 Anybody else?
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1 A. There was also somebody from the Church.
2 Brian Anderson, I think.
3 Q. Uh-huh.
4 A. And I think those are the only --
5 Q. He was the chief -- he was the head guy for OSA,
6 right, at the time?
7 A. I don't know really what his post is, but he's
8 from OSA, yes.
9 Q. All right. Are you familiar with Dr. Minkoff? Do
10 you know him?
11 A. I know him.
12 Q. Okay. How do you know him?
13 A. I have just met him several times at different
14 Church functions.
15 Q. Okay. He -- my understanding, he's also an
16 OT-VIII. Is there a fraternity of OT-VIII people? That's a
17 big thing. I mean, OT-VIII is a very -high level for the
18 Church. Do you know all the other OT-VIlls?
19 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
20 Q. You know what I'm saying.
21 A. No, I don't know all the other OT-VIIIs. Patients
22 will ask me, do you know blah, blah, blah, and they say
23 they're an OT-VIII, but I don't know them all. It's kind of
24 a personal thing, like the schools today, where you can
25 learn at your own pace, and that's the thing with this.
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1 Q. It's definitely graduate studies?
2 A. It's a little higher level, yes.
3 Q. Okay. Did you ever have a conversation with
4 Dr. Minkoff about his involvement in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You knew he was -- he was the treating physician,
7 ultimately?
8 A. That's what I heard, yes.
9 Q. Actually, he didn't get to treat her, but
10 pronounced I guess is what he did.
11 Did you write any reports for this -- for the
12 Church in reference to your involvement with Lisa Mcpherson?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you had any other conversations with anybody
15 else with the Church in reference to Lisa McPherson since
16 this investigation began with the Clearwater
17 Police Department back in the beginning of `96?
18 A. No. Prior to the police wanting to speak with,
19 me -- -
20 Q. You spoke to one of these guys way back when?
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No, Ron Sudler.
22 MR. McGARRY: Sudler did that?
23 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah.
24 A. That's the first that I knew that there was any --
25 any concern about the whole thing.
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1 Q. Right.
2 How about any other lawyers other than the lawyer
3 sitting here with you here?
4 A. Church's lawyers.
5 Q. That would be Sandy Weinberg and Lee Fugate and
6 Laura Vaughan?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. And that would have occurred when?
9 A. I don't recall the first time I spoke with Sandy.
10 I don't know if that was around the time of the
11 investigation and when the police interviewed me.
12 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with an OSA representative
13 named Jane Jenczh?
14 A. Who. -
15 Q. Jenczh.
16 A. Oh, Hebert Jenczh -- no, I don't think that's him.
17 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No. I think
18 this is his wife, Jane.
19 A. No, I don't know.
20 MR. McGARRY: Okay. We can take a break if
21: you'd like. I don't think we have much more. The
22 Detectives always pick up questions I neglected to ask.
23 We can plunge on through and finish up or you're
24 welcome to take a break.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm ready to plunge.
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1 MR. McGARRY: Okay. Gentlemen, if you have a
2 couple of questions, you can wrap it up.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
5 Q. You said you diagnosed the salt and potassium
6 problem with Lisa, and I missed how you diagnosed that.
7 A. It's called muscle testing or applied kinesiology,
8 where you actually -- are you familiar with that?
9 Q. No. My familiarity would be if you had an
10 electrolyte problem or some type of problem, you go get a
11 blood test and the laboratory would tell you you were, you
12 know, iron deficient, whatever.
13 You're using a different method to do it. No
14 blood test was done on Lisa?
15 A. No blood test.
16 Q. Is that -- is that a well known procedure?
17 A. Yes, applied kinesiology is very well known. It's
18 called AK for short.
19 There's another technology in chiropractic called
20 CRA, which stands for contact reflex analysis, and there was
21 a reflex point on the body that is very specific for salt
22 deficiency.
23 Q. Did you bring any records for us today? We issued
24 subpoenas.
25 A. This is her folder. Do you want it?
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1 Q. Yeah. We're going to need to get copies of it.
2 Could we go back over your medical background as
3 far as training and education? -
4 A. I went to college, Michigan State University,
5 graduated in `73.
6 Q. With?
7 A. Degree in -- BA in psychology.
8 Q. Psychology?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Strange.
11 A. Strange? Why is that strange?
12 Q. Well, knowing the Church's opinion of
13 psychologists.
14 A. I know their opinion of psychiatry.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. And then I got my degree from chiropractic college
17 in December of -- December of `79.
18 Q. And that was from?
19 A. Palmer College in Iowa.
20 Q. Okay. Now, have you had practices since `79?
21 A. 1980, I think, I started my practice in Michigan.
22 Q. 1980?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. And that was your own company or did you work for
25 somebody?
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1 A. My own.
2 Q. Okay. And when did that last, from 1980 till?
3 A. Till 1990.
4 Q. Okay. And then in `91 --
5 A. Came to Florida.
6 Q. -- you came to Clearwater and then applied here?
7 A. Well, I already had my -- my license here.
8 Q. Oh, okay. I noticed in your previous statement
9 you had said that Lisa -- to Lisa that "you screwed up."
10 Tell me about that. It's kind of a strange thing for
11 someone consoling someone, you know what I'm saying. Almost
12 Dr. Lovett's -- your representation of Dr. Lovett's comments
13 about her taking her clothes off. But tell me about that
14 "you screwed up" thing.
15 A. I think anybody -- I think people should have
16 control over their cars, for one thing. And if they get in
17 accidents, somebody screwed up. And so here she was in a
18 hospital, and then with this information, you know, about
19 the possibility of having taken off her clothes, and I
20 didn't know the sequence of all of that, but I'd say that's
21 a bad combination.
22 Q. Judy Goldsberry-Weber, did you ever see her at the
23 hospital?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Tell me about that. When did she show up? What
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1 was the time frame?
2 A. It was, I don't know, mid-way. All I know, I had
3 spent the whole time there next to Lisa.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And then at one point they asked us to leave
6 the -- the room so that they could have a personal
7 interview, Lovett and I think the psychiatric nurse. And so
8 I stepped out. And at that time I saw Judy in the hall.
9 Q. Now, that description by other people of that, did
10 you go -- could you still hear what was going on?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. I noticed you mentioned blue-green algae.
13 Did you prescribe that for Lisa?
14 A. No.
15 Q. She was taking that on her own?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you prescribe that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What was wrong with her back?
20 A. She had had a problem earlier in Texas, and I
21 don't have all the specific details of that, at fifth lumbar
22 and sacrum.
23 Q. So you were making adjustments on that to make her
24 feel better? She was experiencing pain, I guess?
25 A. Well, at that time it was just her history. When
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1 she first came to me it was not what she was complaining
2 about, it was this dizziness. But that was -- that was part
3 of her history, that she had a problem back in Texas with
4 her back.
5 Q. Okay. At the hospital, could you just give me an
6 estimate of Lisa's hekght and weight?
7 A. I'm the worst one at that.
8 Well, she was taller than I was, so she might have
9 been five eight. And she was a little leaner than I for her
10 height, so maybe 140 pounds.
11 Q. I know people have described her as bubbly.
12 A. As what?
13 Q. Bubbly. You know, a bubbly personality. I know
14 that changed, according to some of the things that you've
15 indicated.
16 How about -- what I'm looking at is, could you
17 describe her fitness level? I mean, some people at
18 five eight, 140 pounds could be, you know, overweight or not
19 in good shape. Was she in good shape, you know, according
20 to what you could tell?
21 A. Well, she was lean. She had her periods of
22 sometimes she exercised, sometimes she wouldn't. Sometimes,
23 like especially in 1995, she seemed leaner to me in '95
24 because of the -- her loss of appetite. And I don't know,
25 she could have even been 130 for her heighth too, because
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1 she didn't have full hips, she have a very flat tummy. She
2 always seemed just lean to me.
3 Q. All right. She wouldn't have weighed 108 pounds
4 though?
5 A. No, she was more than 108.
6 Q. Did Lisa pay you for, services?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. She would write you checks or --
9 A. Yep.
10 Q. What is your understanding of the handling of
11 PTS-III people by the Church?
12 A. I don't have an understanding of it.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. I've never had any personal experience with it, so
15 I don't know.
16 Q. Okay. And in your studies up to OT-VIII, that's
17 not discussed at all or anything?
18 A. Well, there is -- there are plenty of books about
19 it, but it's not -- hasn't anything to do with OT-VIII.
20 Q. Okay. So basically, when Lisa was at the Church,
21 you weren't sure what was gonna happen?
22 A. In terms of being sure, I did not know what was
23 going to happen, no.
24 Q. In April of `95 Lisa talked about suicide. How
25 did she talk about that?
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1 A. We -- that was when I -- and I think it's around
2 April. I saw her at this -- at the restaurant at the
3 Fort Harrison. She was eating by -- alone. And all that --
4 that early year she was -- she was just never happy looking.
5 And she definitely wasn't happy there.
6 And because she was sitting by herself, I decided
7 to sit down with her, just to see how she was doing. During
8 the course of that time she -- she started talking about
9 suicide. And she said, you know, That's something that I've
10 looked at as a possibility.
11 Q. Okay. So she didn't give you any method?
12 A. No.
13 Q. She just said suicide?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Do you use Hubbard tech and management in your
16 business?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. While you were at the hospital, did you ever hear
19 Lisa ask to leave the hospital or ask to go to the
20 Fort Harrison Hotel?
21 A. No. I didn't hear her ask any questions --
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. -- of any sort.
24 Q. Maybe you don't know, but did taking her clothes
25 off have anything to do with her religion? Did you make
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1 any -- you know, a comparison to the studies at the Church
2 as far as her taking her clothes off?
3 A. Let me understand your question here.
4 Q. I have a little bit -- you know, I've been
5 studying too a little bit about Scientology, and my
6 understanding is, if you go Clear, okay -- which is before
7 you get to OT-VIII, so you must be Clear, right?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. There's some idea that your body's not needed,
10 your clothes are not needed, all operating Theatines don't
11 need those things. Does that -- that doesn't --
12 A. No, I-- that doesn't make any sense to me. I've
13 never seen it written pr had any experience with taking your
14 clothes off in public as a -- is a good thing or a religious
15 thing.
16 Q. But doesn't the religion say -- in fact most of
17 her friends use this term, that Lisa really didn't die, she
18 just dropped her body?
19 A. I'm sure -- I can understand where people would
20 say that, yes. -
21 Q. She just dropped her body?
22 A. But it doesn't have anything to do with socially
23 taking your clothes off. That's not consistent with our
24 religion, no.
25 Q. That's not consistent with your religion.
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1 Were you aware of any pressure on Dr. Lovett to
2 release her?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you read the form that you signed?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. You did not read the form you signed?
7 A. No. He just said, you know, they needed a
8 witness, I think the nurse said if you could sign here, and
9 since -- they told Lisa where to sign, told me where to
10 sign, so I signed it.
11 Q. You weren't aware that was a release against
12 medical advice?
13 A. No.
14 Was it?
15 Q. Yes.
16 Dr.Lovett --
17 A. Oh, okay.
18 Q. Dr. Lovett -- if you look at the form, it's a
19 release against medical advice.
20 A. Oh.
21 Q. And I was wondering, you know, here we have you,
22 the doctor sitting next to her, and then Dr. Lovett saying
23 no, I'm not going to release her, she's going to have, to
24 sign herself out against medical advice, and you go ahead
25 and you witness that form.
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1 A. No, I didn't know that was against medical advice.
2 I thought it was standard hospital procedure, you need
3 somebody to sign you out. My impression of Dr. Lovett is,
4 he wouldn't let her out if he felt that she shouldn't.
5 Q. These protein drinks, cal mag, the vitamins,
6 velarian root, all of these things, can these things in
7 themselves add to dehydration?
8 A. Not that I know of.
9 Q. It's been described by some people that these
10 thing are concentrated drinks, protein drinks and cal mag,
11 they're concentrated drinks and that in order for a body to
12 absorb them, more moisture is needed, so therefore, these
13 things would add to dehydration.
14 Does that fit in with your understanding?
15 A. No, it does not.
16 Q. Okay. What about prescription drugs? There were
17 prescription drugs given to Lisa. Now, in your practice, as
18 far as a nutritionist and stuff, do you believe in
19 prescription drugs?
20 A. I believe if they're necessary, absolutely. If
21 they need an antibiotic, if they need something like that.
22 Q. How about sedatives?
23 A. I'm not -- my personal belief is, I'm against
24 sedatives.
25 Q. If you had to use a sedative, would you use
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1 velarian root or magnesium, I guess it's been described?
2 A. Well, I know in nature calcium is considered a
3 natural tranquilizer, if you're looking at the more natural
4 form of things. And velarian root is also something that is
5 used to help a person sleep, but I don't --
6 Q. Do you use that?
7 A. No, I don't like velarian root.
8 Q. Is there ,a reason you don't like it?
9 A. What I find clinically many patients who use it
10 feel a little drugged by it. Some people say they swear by
11 it and think that's the best thing to go to sleep.
12 Q. Who paid for your trip to Texas to go to the
13 funeral?
14 A. I think I did. I would have to look at my
15 records.
16 Q. I mean, who else would pay for it?
17 A. Benetta could have, I imagine. But I shared rooms
18 with Benetta and Brenda, so that -- that was paid for. But
19 I think that I paid for my ticket myself.
20 Q. Okay. Where did you earn your OT-VIII? Was that
21 here in Clearwater?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How did you end up with Bob Johnson as an attorney
24 in the first interview?
25 A. I'm trying to see how that went. Somebody from
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1 the Church said that that was an attorney that could --
2 should be present probably for me.
3 Q. All right. So it was not your request for an
4 attorney, it was the Church's request for an attorney?
5 A. I don't know that it even was a request. They
6 just thought, well, if you're going to, you know, be sitting
7 there, perhaps you would want one.
8 Q. Little strange?
9 A. No, not necessarily.
10 Q. I don't see him here today.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Someone mentioned that you had brought up the word
13 "treason" as far as Lisa, I guess, going to see this other
14 doctor or something. Would that be something you would use,
15 a word like that?
16 A. Yes. Only again, if you look at this -- this
17 question brought up about ethics. We had a normal -- what's
18 considered a normal condition as patient and doctor. And
19 then she was choosing the amounts and the supplements and
20 that sort of thing that she was taking, and she was going to
21 this person for advice and that person for advice. And my
22 opinion, our relationship as a doctor/patient had changed
23 and, therefore, there was some betrayal of loyalties, if,--
24 if you want to put it that way. And so I felt that because
25 of that she and I could never -- could not at that point
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1 have a doctor/patient relationship.
2 Q. Were you handling any ethics for Lisa?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you often -- or do you mix religion with your
5 practice?
6 A. Nope.
7 Q. So you keep them two separate too?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Have you had any auditing or a Sec Check involving
10 Lisa's case?
11 MS. REBACK: I'm going to object to that:
12 I'm not sure that that question doesn't invade some
13 religious practices that --
14 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: My only
15 clarification was, I'm not asking specifically about
16 what they discussed, which would be privileged --
17 MS. REBACK: No, you in fact did.
18 MR. McGARRY: The answer may be no. Can we
19 handle that?
20 MS. REBACK: No, I don't think so. I think
21 the form of your question was, have you had any
22 auditing or Sec-Check about Lisa or with regards to
23 that effect.
24 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah,
25 Lisa McPherson, this case.
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1 MS. REBACK: Right. Right. Which I think
2 contains within it the content of any auditing she may
3 have had would be about Lisa. That would refer to what
4 it would be about. And I just don't think -- that's
5 like suggesting, you know, did you discuss with your
6 priest about Lisa or something. And I just don't feel
7 it's appropriate. And as to that question, I think
8 we'll kind of stick with that.
9 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: You're going to
10 object?
11 MS. REBACK: I'm objecting to --
12 MR. McGARRY: Let's ask this: Did you have a
13 Sec Check in reference to Lisa McPherson?
14 MS. REBACK: Same objection.
15 MR. McGARRY: I'm not asking what was done.
16 I'm asking if the procedure was done, I'm not asking
17 what transpired in the conversation.
18 MS. REBACK: Let me ask this: Are you
19 comfortable answering that question?
20 THE WITNESS: Whether I had a Sec Check?
21 MS. REBACK: Regarding Lisa McPherson.
22 Did you have a Sec Check regarding
23 Lisa McPherson, is that your question?
24 MR. McGARRY: Yeah.
25 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't have a problem
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1 answering that. No.
2 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Still haven't
3 answered my auditing question.
4 MS. REBACK: Do you feel uncomfortable
5 answering that question?
6 THE WITNESS: I do.
7 MS. REBACK: So we're not going to answer it.
8 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: So we split
9 hairs on what's a Sec Check and what's auditing.
10 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
11 Q. Have you discussed your testimony with anybody
12 other than your attorney?
13 MS. REBACK: This testimony? I think she --
14 I'm sorry, this testimony.
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yes, today,
16 coming here today to testify.
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you left Lisa at 210 South Fort Harrison
19 Avenue, did you tell anybody there about her problems?
20 A. No. I assumed everyone knew what her problems
21 were.
22 Q. And in your assumption, what were those problems?
23 A. What problems were you talking about?
24 Q. I'm talking about the salt problem or potassium
25 problem or things like that.
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1 A. No, I didn't tell anyone about that.
2 Q. Is there a reason why?
3 A. Well, at that time I wasn't acting as a doctor
4 there. And at that time she was not my patient. And at
5 that time it was how many months from when I last worked
6 with her, with her salt situation.
7 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I think that's
8 all I have. Thank you very much.
9 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I just have a couple.
10 EXAMINATION
11 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
12 Q. Did you write a Knowledge Report on this treason
13 issue with Lisa?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Would that be normal procedure for you to do that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You said to the prosecutor that the usual practice
18 is that one Scientologist can write a Knowledge Report on
19 another for any issue, right?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Is there a parameter for those issues?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, if you have -- if I have a friend of mine who
24 starts discussing things like suicide, I'm obviously going
25 to tell somebody. That's something that you should relay to
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1 someone.
2 Would you write a Knowledge Report if another
3 scientologist were going to commit suicide or thinking abou?
4 committing suicide?
5 MS. REBACK: Do you understand his question?
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 Q. Well, we write Knowledge Reports about minuscule
8 things, that's been the testimony here for six months,
9 wouldn't you write Knowledge Reports for suicide?
10 MS. REBACK: Do you agree with the first part
11 of his question? --
12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
13 Q. Do you agree Knowledge Reports are written by
14 Scientologists on other Scientologists on whatever they feel
15 may be an important issue?'
16 A. There's a very -- that's not true.
17 Q. No?
18 A. There's very specific reasons.
19 Q. My question is, a Scientologist can write a
20 Knowledge Report about another Scientologist?
21 A. You can write a Knowledge Report, yes.
22 Q. Okay. Is that true? That's true, you'll give me
23 that?
24 A. You can write a Knowledge Report, yes.
25 Q. About whatever you feel to be an important issue?
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1 A. See, I can't quite agree with that.
2 Q. Okay. So do you feel that someone discussing the
3 idea that they may kill themselves, knowing that they have
4 parents and brothers that did so, is not an important issue
5 that should have been maybe written up?
6 A. If you'll recall from this, I didn't know she had
7 this history at the time that she spoke to me about suicide.
8 And no, that's not necessarily something that a
9 Knowledge Report would be written for.
10 Q. So you wouldn't write that up? You wouldn't
11 necessarily write that up?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. What training do you have in nutrition? Is
14 there a part of your medical background that trains you to
15 say which vitamin does what and which nutrient does what?
16 A. We have some in chiropractic college, plus this
17 CRA, contact reflex analysis, is all about nutrition.
18 Q. Is there ever a point in your relationship with a
19 patient that you send that patient for blood tests to a
20 medical doctor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You didn'treach that point with Lisa?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And you're familiar with blue-green algae?
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. Do you have a lot of patients that use that?
2 A. I have some that come that use it, yes.
3 Q. Is that a Scientology thing?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I've never heard of it before, so I --
6 A. It started in the Clearwater area, not
7 Scientologists, but as a multi-level and it -- there are
8 certain waves of nutritional things that hit the market,
9 like Melatonin is the hottest thing now, but blue-green
10 algae was the thing some years ago.
11 Q. So the manufacture or invention, or whatever you
12 call them, blue-green algae began in Clearwater?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I thought you said it began in Clearwater?
15 A. No, when it hit Clearwater as a happening thing.
16 Q. Oh, I see.
17 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Bear with me here.
18 THE WITNESS: That's okay.
19 (Pause.)
20 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
21 Q. Did Benetta ever tell you why she didn't go to
22 Morton Plant; why she wanted you to go?
23 A. I know that when she called she had been -- I
24 think she was actually working on Winter Wonderland and was
25 painting something, and she said she was covered with paint.
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1 I don't recall exactly if she said that David went over
2 there. But I know that just talking about different medical
3 things and blood and stuff like that, that's not her thing.
4 Q. Who -- we have testimony indicating there were
5 probably between six to ten Scientologist personnel at the
6 hospital. Do you remember who they are?
7 A. Really? Geez, since I spent most of my time in
8 with Lisa -- I saw Kartuzinski. I saw Judy at some point.
9 David Slaughter. Then there was another fellow, only when
10 we were -- when we came out did I see him, and I don't know,
11 what his name was. So one, two, three, four. Four only,
12 four Scientologists that I know of.
13 Q. And Brian Anderson, who's a member of OSA?
14 A. Didn't see him.
15 Q. He was there.
16 A. Oh, was he?
17 Q. Yes.
18 Is that a usual procedure when a Scientologist is
19 involved in a minor accident, to send all these people to
20 the hospital?
21 A. I don't know what the procedure is over there.
22 Q. Doesn't seem kind of peculiar to you? Was that a
23 little overkill, maybe?
24 A. I don't know anything about --
25 Q. Don't know?
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1 A. I was wearing the hat of a doctor.
2 Q. Did Lisa speak to you?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Did she tell you what she wanted to do, what her
5 plans were, she wanted to go home, she wanted to go here?
6 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
7 Q. Nothing?
8 A. Nothing.
9 Q. Did she say, I want to get out of the hospital?
10 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
11 Q. Did she say anything at all?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I'm jumping around, because I have to take notes
14 on two conversations, so it's not a smooth train of thought.
15 Were salts a problem as a result of Florida heat?
16 A. I believe so.
17 Q. So the more time she spent outside was the more
18 problem she had.
19 That was a problem that happens with people that
20 move from Michigan, right?
21 A. And some bodies just don't do as well as other
22 bodies.
23 Q. Were you under the impression that when Lisa was
24 signed out of the hospital there was an agreement that the
25 Scientologists would take care of her and see that she had
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1 proper care? Did you hear any or all of that agreement?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What was your opinion of what was going to happen
4 with Lisa? Did you know?
5 A. No. I thought she was just going to, you know,
6 get some rest.
7 Q. Was -- was it pre-arranged that there was a room
8 at the hotel or was that something that was arranged at the
9 hospital?
10 A. I don't know anything about it.
11 Q. You don't know anything about it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. When Benetta told you that Lisa was taken to
14 Dr. Minkoff in New Port Richey, did she say why she wasn't
15 taken to Morton Plant --
16 A. She didn't tell me.
17 Q. -- just a few blocks away?
18 A. She didn't tell me she was taken there.
19 Q. Were you aware or were you told what Lisa's cause
20 of death was by anybody?
21 A. No. What I was told is that she didn't know what
22 it was. And that was even the problem when we went to
23 the -- to Texas, the Coroner or the Medical Examiner hadn't
24 given the reason yet.
25 Q. The day that you were told by Benetta, did she
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1 tell you what her idea was as far as cause of death?
2 A. No. She said she didn't know what it was.
3 Q. She didn't mention diseases or infections or
4 anything?
5 A. There was this -- I don't remember where this came
6 from, but there was like some -- a virus, I think is what I
7 was initially told, and I don't even know where I heard that
8 first. But it became, I felt, very difficult for the family
9 because we -- we went to support them and yet we didn't --
10 hadn't at that time even been told what the cause was.
11 Q. Did you talk to Lisa's mother?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Did you?
14 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
15 Q. Were you invited out there by the family, is that
16 why everybody went out there?
17 A. I wasn't invited by the family.
18 Q. Did you know Susanne Schnurrenberger?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Never met her?
21 A. Unh-unh.
22 Q. Who is she?
23 Q. One of the caretakers.
24 A. Oh.
25 Q. If you didn't meet her, doesn't matter.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything
2 else.
3 MR. McGARRY: Couple of questions and we'll
4 be done.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. McGARRY:
7 Q. Obviously, you know I'm going to ask you a
8 question about this phone call here.
9 A. And that was --
10 Q. Is that a receptionist that wrote that down?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. The date of that is July 11th?
13 A. It's the 14th.
14 Q. 14th, excuse me.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. So do you know what that was all about?
17 A. Well, if you'll look at my notes from that day,
18 that was the day that she called me and said that --
19 Q. Yeah.
20 A. -- she'd been to Jerry, and -- and I was starting
21 to --
22 Q. I gotcha. That's the 14th.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. This is the last -- last day that you saw her.
25 But she came in and bought supplements from you
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1 one other time?
2 A. Did she?
3 Q. See if that's what that means.
4 A. Well, supplements were paid for, doesn't
5 necessarily mean she came in.
6 Q. Oh, okay. I see. So this doesn't mean -- this
7 isn't a contact, necessarily?
8 A. No.
9 Q. She was getting at least some of her supplements
10 from you, right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. You didn't happen to make a copy of all this
13 stuff, did you?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. You did. Oh, thank you so much.
16 A. Do you want the copies?
17 Q. That would be nice, yes. Save me the trouble of
18 doing all that.
19 MS. REBACK: In fact, it was my suggestion
20 that we make copies.
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Somebody needed
22 a couple extra points.
23 MS. REBACK: I just want that on record.
24 MR. McGARRY: I think that will do it.
25 (WHEREUPON, THE TAKING OF THE SWORN STATEMENT WAS
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1 CONCLUDED AT 10:45 A.M.)
2 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5
6 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
7 duly sworn.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this __2nd__ day
of ___October___, 1997.
___________________________________
11 RUTH M MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
12 Commission No. CC 643284
Commission Expires: 4/29/2001
13
STATE OF FLORIDA )
15 COUNTY OF. PINELLAS )
16
I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
17 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent and
18 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic hotes.
19 I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
20 I a.relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
counsel connected with the action, nor am Lfinancially
21 interested in the action.
22 DATED this __2nd__ day of ____October____, 1997.
_______________________
RUTH M MARTIN, RMR
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